On Immersion and Realism in Fiction

[GruesomeGroot]

Again and again, whenever someone brings up something being immersion breaking or unrealistic in a fantastical setting, the argument is always " X is unrealistic but fire spitting dragons are???".

"Realism" is subjective to the world in which the story takes place and its rules.

In Shawshank Redemption, if Andy Dufresne suddenly flew out of the prison courtyard to Mexico at the movie's climax, yes it would be unrealistic. Because the story takes place in the real world.

However in Harry Potter, despite there being wizards and magic and fire spitting dragons, if a 40 year old muggle who in all his life has never shown any magical aptitude, suddenly takes up a wand, flourishes it and sparks come flying out. It is unrealistic, because the world's rules do not permit non magical beings suddenly turning magical.

One last example before moving on to my issue with Veilguard. This one more recent and much more subtle, assassin's creed. While yes there are fantastical elements, with gods of mythology and supernatural artifacts, trhoughout the story. The world is still set in the 'real world' with our 'history' and thus historical societal 'rules'.

If an assassin's creed were to take place in feudal France and a nobleman were Asian for instance. It would be immersion breaking because in medieval times, the chances of running into an asian man in Europe would be astronomically low, a noble one at that impossible...

Now with Veilguard... What is immersion breaking to me and unrealistic is not the presence of trans, homosexual or non binary characters. Like many have pointed out they have always existed. What is immersion breaking is how they are implemented in the medieval world of Dragon Age.

The denominations non binary or trans or the issue of pronouns ' they/them ' come from modern society. In a medieval world where apocalyptic events are commonplace and where racial struggles are prominent. I do not see a 'LGBT' like movement suddenly take root and impacting the world to the point where a person like Isabela from DA2 would suddenly do 10 pushups in apology because she addressed someone with the wrong pronouns...


To finish, I would like to say that if you don't care about immersion that's fine. I have friends who watched rings of power and enjoyed it because they didn't care about Tolkien's world they just wanted to watch a cool show.

But some of us do care and for us issues like Veilguard's are a deal breaker. And when we cannot enjoy the franchises we love so much because the world and its lore are not being taken into account, it leaves us frustrated.

[Space]

Man.. you just took the perfect Hammer, and hit it perfectly against the perfect nail.

I couldn't have said this better myself. Especially if you look at the history of the direction of the game. Raising an army, repairing the ranks of an unstable and broken kingdom to take on a fierce outwardly presence known evilishly as the Darkspawn.

To.. push ups apologies...

[PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by GruesomeGroot:

Again and again, whenever someone brings up something being immersion breaking or unrealistic in a fantastical setting, the argument is always " X is unrealistic but fire spitting dragons are???".

"Realism" is subjective to the world in which the story takes place and its rules.

In Shawshank Redemption, if Andy Dufresne suddenly flew out of the prison courtyard to Mexico at the movie's climax, yes it would be unrealistic. Because the story takes place in the real world.

However in Harry Potter, despite there being wizards and magic and fire spitting dragons, if a 40 year old muggle who in all his life has never shown any magical aptitude, suddenly takes up a wand, flourishes it and sparks come flying out. It is unrealistic, because the world's rules do not permit non magical beings suddenly turning magical.

One last example before moving on to my issue with Veilguard. This one more recent and much more subtle, assassin's creed. While yes there are fantastical elements, with gods of mythology and supernatural artifacts, trhoughout the story. The world is still set in the 'real world' with our 'history' and thus historical societal 'rules'.

If an assassin's creed were to take place in feudal France and a nobleman were Asian for instance. It would be immersion breaking because in medieval times, the chances of running into an asian man in Europe would be astronomically low, a noble one at that impossible...

Now with Veilguard... What is immersion breaking to me and unrealistic is not the presence of trans, homosexual or non binary characters. Like many have pointed out they have always existed. What is immersion breaking is how they are implemented in the medieval world of Dragon Age.

The denominations non binary or trans or the issue of pronouns ' they/them ' come from modern society. In a medieval world where apocalyptic events are commonplace and where racial struggles are prominent. I do not see a 'LGBT' like movement suddenly take root and impacting the world to the point where a person like Isabela from DA2 would suddenly do 10 pushups in apology because she addressed someone with the wrong pronouns...


To finish, I would like to say that if you don't care about immersion that's fine. I have friends who watched rings of power and enjoyed it because they didn't care about Tolkien's world they just wanted to watch a cool show.

But some of us do care and for us issues like Veilguard's are a deal breaker. And when we cannot enjoy the franchises we love so much because the world and its lore are not being taken into account, it leaves us frustrated.

Correct. Whoever says different has no idea how to make an immersive game or story in another world where modern day thinking no longer applies.

However, I think most of these people making these games are so taken over by `woke` that want to change the REAL world they simply use games as a preaching platform. they don't care about the game or the lore itself. that's what's really bad.

Their excuses "That's it's all fantasy anyway" is just sophistry to confuse people, open the door then they get in and take over. People need to be aware of their tactic and stand against it.

[Mysti_Fogg]

Yup. As we've been saying, that's the problem.

I can even tell you how to fix it, in general terms.

1) Do some historical research on different gender identities in the world.

2) Do some sociological research on different gender identities in the world.

3) Question what it would be like to be nonbinary in a world where there wasn't an internet or a supportive community, and how you would even express that because you don't even have the words to say what you feel.

4) Build a journey of self-discovery for the character, including conversations with the player where they can try to help the character, suggesting people to talk to about what Taash is feeling (religious advisors, cool foreign groups you hear might have some insight), or the player can belittle the character's feelings and stifle the journey.

5) Have a dramatic end of the journey (Maybe a Taash is just Taash ending (acceptance), an ending where Taash joins some kind of philosophical/religious group or tribe because the rest of the world doesn't understand, but Taash feels accepted just here (medium ending where Taash is conditionally at peace), and a Taash offing Taash ending if the journey goes nowhere and the feelings of self-doubt and confusion are crippling, taking Taash out before the final battle)

I think it would build player good will and empathy to go on such a journey together, but still provide the roleplaying opportunities that someone who is a b*stard to all their companions likes.

ETA: Oh, and provide an option for people who are trans or nonbinary to sympathize and more closely share the journey.

[GruesomeGroot]

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Yup. As we've been saying, that's the problem.

I can even tell you how to fix it, in general terms.

1) Do some historical research on different gender identities in the world.

2) Do some sociological research on different gender identities in the world.

3) Question what it would be like to be nonbinary in a world where there wasn't an internet or a supportive community, and how you would even express that because you don't even have the words to say what you feel.

4) Build a journey of self-discovery for the character, including conversations with the player where they can try to help the character, suggesting people to talk to about what Taash is feeling (religious advisors, cool foreign groups you hear might have some insight), or the player can belittle the character's feelings and stifle the journey.

5) Have a dramatic end of the journey (Maybe a Taash is just Taash ending (acceptance), an ending where Taash joins some kind of philosophical/religious group or tribe because the rest of the world doesn't understand, but Taash feels accepted just here (medium ending where Taash is conditionally at peace), and a Taash offing Taash ending if the journey goes nowhere and the feelings of self-doubt and confusion are crippling, taking Taash out before the final battle)

I think it would build player good will and empathy to go on such a journey together, but still provide the roleplaying opportunities that someone who is a b*stard to all their companions likes.

ETA: Oh, and provide an option for people who are trans or nonbinary to sympathize and more closely share the journey.

Wow, this exactly!

People are acting as if fiction isn't political or doesn't have a 'message'.
While some are just there for entertainment.
Many do, it just has to be well done. Instead of telling it to the reader/player/viewer, it simply has to ask questions, make him reflect on what he has just seen.

Blade Runner or The Matrix are perfect examples of movies who on the surface are simple sci-fi flicks, but ask us deep questions to reflect on after viewing if we want to.

Questions that at NO POINT detract from the story they're telling and the entertainment they provide.

[GruesomeGroot]

Originally posted by PeaceMaker:

Correct. Whoever says different has no idea how to make an immersive game or story in another world where modern day thinking no longer applies.

However, I think most of these people making these games are so taken over by `woke` that want to change the REAL world they simply use games as a preaching platform. they don't care about the game or the lore itself. that's what's really bad.

Their excuses "That's it's all fantasy anyway" is just sophistry to confuse people, open the door then they get in and take over. People need to be aware of their tactic and stand against it.

Yes, I truly think the video game industry (as well as cinema) is plagued with people who simply want to tear down existing franchises that don't agree with their 'ideals' and 'modern thinking'.

However, I have had many arguments with a childhood friend about modern entertainment. It was when he kept asking me to watch Rings of Power and I wouldn't budge that I realized that some people just don't care about immersion, worldbuilding and how everything fits in together. it doesn't even factor in their minds.

It was only when I explained all I meant by immersion and realism that he understood and we both agreed to disagree.

EDIT: What I mean to say is that we all look for different things in the media we consume. The outrage with Dragon Age: Veilguard and many other new releases (Star wars, Rings of Power, Netflix' Sandman etc.) is that these are all well established franchises with an already existing fanbase.
If you want to preach your modern ideas do it with your own f*****g fictional world.
Don't butcher what's been done before, for your own whims.

[lumina]

If you suddenly change the lore completely because you have a DEI hire who didn't care about the world... Yeah...

This world wasn't created with transgender people running around. The setting it takes after didn't have transgender people. Your argument only makes sense if you are making your own new world.

[Neuroticcuriosity]

Originally posted by lumina:

If you suddenly change the lore completely because you have a DEI hire who didn't care about the world... Yeah...

This world wasn't created with transgender people running around. The setting it takes after didn't have transgender people. Your argument only makes sense if you are making your own new world.

There was literally a trans character in the last game. And trans people have always been around, if not vocal, so saying a "setting" doesn't have trans people is just saying that you *personally* don't want it to. As long as there have been human beings, there have been trans people. We've just existed.

Your use of DEI does denote how much you actually know of the real world though. XD

[Mysti_Fogg]

Originally posted by Neuroticcuriosity:

Originally posted by lumina:

If you suddenly change the lore completely because you have a DEI hire who didn't care about the world... Yeah...

This world wasn't created with transgender people running around. The setting it takes after didn't have transgender people. Your argument only makes sense if you are making your own new world.

There was literally a trans character in the last game. And trans people have always been around, if not vocal, so saying a "setting" doesn't have trans people is just saying that you *personally* don't want it to. As long as there have been human beings, there have been trans people. We've just existed.

Your use of DEI does denote how much you actually know of the real world though. XD

Trans people absolutely exist/have always existed.

They did not always use the word "trans" though. That's a word that was developed in 1971. It comes from Transvestite, which was developed in 1910 and originally only used in German medical circles.

So pre-20th century, you're not going to have people who call themselves trans

People did not identify as nonbinary before 2000. So in the very last year of the 20th century, that is how modern that word is.

Examples of early 3rd/4th gender folk (sorry, don't know any nonbinary ones)

People in rural Ukraine would bring up daughters as sons if they didn't have sons/enough sons. Everyone knew they were physically female but had the rights and responsibilities of men.

In Samoan tribal culture, there's a subset of gay men who cross dress and do women's work. They're their own gender.

Japan had wakashu, who were usually young boys. They had a particular style of dress and haircut, and their own place in gender politics.

Hijras are trans, intersex, or eunuchs in India who dress in a feminine way and often offer themselves or their manhood in the service of one of the goddesses.

Mexico has Muxe who have male bodies but perform neither male nor female gender roles they are their own thing.

Native Americans have Two Spirit, which is actually a modern replacement of a previous term, but works really well as a fantasy concept (though native people have been offended at non-natives appropriating the term, but I think the general concept is good if you put different words to it.))

These are just things I'd already known plus about a 5 minute google search. If I actually read more books on the topic, I could write even more eloquently.

What DA did was cheap and easy and broke immersion.