I Finally Agree About Taash.

[DaisyRay]

My last post got deleted for spam, so I'll do my best to express my opinion again, but shorter and without spoilers.

I am not almost fifty hours into the game and I've seen a lot more of Taash's story. I agree.

While Taash has grown on me and I still love this game overall, I have to agree that her backstory was a bit much. While I don't mind since I'm a member of the LGBTQ+, I do think that a video game was an odd place to discuss these topics. Especially since the rest of the game and companions fit into the world more, they're all about magic, darkspawn, etc. Then Taash is....Taash. It just feels out of place in this world.

I still like the game though and I like Taash, but I can understand why some people might not feel comfortable with this game. HOWEVER, all of those parts are completely avoidable. So you can still enjoy the game and just not focus on her storyline. Anywho, that's all.

[MacWalesUK]

I'd rather gender ideology not be in my games if I'm being perfectly honest but it doesn't stop me enjoying said games.

For me the issue with Taash is that she's just overly emotionally and angsty which can make the character somewhat insufferable at times especially when there are bigger problems on the horizon, you know like evil Elven Gods, dragons, the end of the world...

[Bankai9212]

Ignoring what is an obvious self insert, Taash is just a bad character in general I'd argue one of the worst bioware has ever written.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by krtansey81:

To anyone who thinks Taash's struggle with being nonbinary and having to figure out who she is doesn't belong in the game or isn't needed...you're all wrong. Could the writing be better, yes (and always in any game).

"I doubt that the developers foresaw that Taash's identity issues would cause such an uproar."

They absolutely did, and didn't give one iota, because that's who Bioware is. This is Bioware being true to themselves, the way they should be. Just like Taash needs to be, her character and story line are perfect for it. All of this follows in the trend of not just Bioware games and the Bioware crew, but especially Dragon Age itself. I can't be the only one who's read about the creators of the series and why LGBTQ issues are important to them, since many were themselves LGBTQ. They have continually strived to be more and more inclusive.

To anyone it bothers: 1, I'm glad it does and 2, if you don't like it, go play something else. Bioware will have plenty of sales without you, more than it they had not included it.

Hows about Taash being a better written character? Me like others could care less what she identify as.

[JayS86]

I wouldn't have minded Taash's character if the writing of them were better. Dorian's character worked, because the language at which it was presented. The modern terminology was a distraction that detracted from the writing. These people were creative writers, they could have found a better more nuanced way for Taash to describe themselves. They chose to be blunt and intrusive about the presentation. It comes across as lazy. Dorian's arc was similar, but the writing was so much better. It incorporated the use of blood magic, his father's rank, and gave a good and distinct reason for the conflict between Dorian and his father, for which it needs resolved. It is also resolved fairly well, it isn't placed in the game as a strong narrative focal point with a span of a ton of in-game screen time.

You also had the choice to completely dismiss Dorian's feelings. You could have an entirely negative relationship with him if you so chose to go that route. I never did, as I found Dorian as one of the better written characters in Inquisition as a whole.

What makes Taash a weak character is that we're supposed to accept that this character is an adult. Instead they come across as a willfully ignorant and petulant child. I say willfully ignorant, because they contradict their own struggles by belittling other people who have different lifestyles and choices than their own.

There are glaring examples:

Neve is feminine and presents herself as a woman. Yet Taash can't accept that about her, a grown adult would know and accept that people are different, and move along without being fussy with a ton of apathy. Taash knows they are different in their own mind, yet confused about it, but somehow cannot accept that Neve likes to present herself as a woman, doesn't find fault in being one, and doesn't feel she needs to change what she feels like presenting as to the world. It was to the point where Taash even says: "No one likes to be a woman..." which I found incredibly insulting to every female character around them. Taash gets barely any correction for this behavior, instead Rook and Neve fall over themselves trying to understand Taash's point of view, to the detriment of their own feelings on the matter. They affirm Taash's reasoning, to the point where Neve and if your Rook is female, don't get to put much weight into the argument at all.

The second:

Emmrich and Taash were having a disagreement. Taash refuses to stop calling him a death mage, a corpse mage. They didn't like the magic that Emmrich was doing, it freaked them out. Understandable, as necromages could come across as such. Instead though, Taash refuses to call him by his first name. To the point where Emmrich and her have a distinct disagreement. An adult would see fault with their behavior especially seeing how important it is for Emmrich to be called and spoken to as they prefer. It takes Rook stepping in and parenting Taash that Emmrich wishes to only be addressed by his name and nothing else. Taash 'eventually' accepts this with a snotty response of a huff and a 'fine,' with a grimace on their face.

This is important, as Taash being a Non-binary person, wouldn't want to be miss-gendered, if they chose to change their name, they wouldn't want to be called by anything different than what they wish to be called. The fact that this character was written in such a way, that it pained Taash to start calling Emmrich by his first name - something that should have been done to show respect for someone else regardless of how you felt about their magic. It reads as extremely hypocritical, because Emmrich never questions or belittles Taash for their Non-binary, and switches to affirm and accommodate them. Taash's inability to do the same is egregious.

The Third:

The entire Bharve scene. Not that Taash is to blame for this exactly. But, this falls very heavily onto the writers and people who thought this scene was appropriate at all. Having to do physical atonement for a simple mistake, as it was a simple mistake since within the timeline Taash is new at coming to terms with themselves, so to expect everyone around them to automatically make that switch in their brains all the time, is too much of an ask. It takes time for people to adapt and slot things into memory, especially since Isabella and Taash had years of history - a history where Taash was a "she" and not a "they/them."

It goes right along with the narrative that apologies aren't enough. The brand of thinking that causes divisiveness in real life. Isabella couldn't just apologize, she had to do ten push-ups to atone for her mistake.

Overall Taash was written with every stereotype that sets back Non-binary people. Immaturity, lack of empathy for differences, forces affirmation from everyone around them, won't address people as they wish to be addressed, but demands to be addressed a certain way. Then, simple apologies aren't enough for miss-gendering someone, you have to capitulate and prostrate yourself in front of them to make a true amends.

This character was written by someone that is LGBTQ+ they should have presented Taash's story a lot better than they did.

[barzai]

Originally posted by krtansey81:

To anyone it bothers: 1, I'm glad it does and 2, if you don't like it, go play something else. Bioware will have plenty of sales without you, more than it they had not included it.

1. I'll remember this the next time someone complains about too many pasty-faced dudes and not enough fugly blue-haired chix.

2. Judging from what we know of the sales and what EA has already announced about the game's future--no DLC and Patch 5 is the end of their support--good luck with that.

[Baalf]

Originally posted by JayS86:

I wouldn't have minded Taash's character if the writing of them were better. Dorian's character worked, because the language at which it was presented. The modern terminology was a distraction that detracted from the writing. These people were creative writers, they could have found a better more nuanced way for Taash to describe themselves. They chose to be blunt and intrusive about the presentation. It comes across as lazy. Dorian's arc was similar, but the writing was so much better. It incorporated the use of blood magic, his father's rank, and gave a good and distinct reason for the conflict between Dorian and his father, for which it needs resolved. It is also resolved fairly well, it isn't placed in the game as a strong narrative focal point with a span of a ton of in-game screen time.

You also had the choice to completely dismiss Dorian's feelings. You could have an entirely negative relationship with him if you so chose to go that route. I never did, as I found Dorian as one of the better written characters in Inquisition as a whole.

What makes Taash a weak character is that we're supposed to accept that this character is an adult. Instead they come across as a willfully ignorant and petulant child. I say willfully ignorant, because they contradict their own struggles by belittling other people who have different lifestyles and choices than their own.

There are glaring examples:

Neve is feminine and presents herself as a woman. Yet Taash can't accept that about her, a grown adult would know and accept that people are different, and move along without being fussy with a ton of apathy. Taash knows they are different in their own mind, yet confused about it, but somehow cannot accept that Neve likes to present herself as a woman, doesn't find fault in being one, and doesn't feel she needs to change what she feels like presenting as to the world. It was to the point where Taash even says: "No one likes to be a woman..." which I found incredibly insulting to every female character around them. Taash gets barely any correction for this behavior, instead Rook and Neve fall over themselves trying to understand Taash's point of view, to the detriment of their own feelings on the matter. They affirm Taash's reasoning, to the point where Neve and if your Rook is female, don't get to put much weight into the argument at all.

The second:

Emmrich and Taash were having a disagreement. Taash refuses to stop calling him a death mage, a corpse mage. They didn't like the magic that Emmrich was doing, it freaked them out. Understandable, as necromages could come across as such. Instead though, Taash refuses to call him by his first name. To the point where Emmrich and her have a distinct disagreement. An adult would see fault with their behavior especially seeing how important it is for Emmrich to be called and spoken to as they prefer. It takes Rook stepping in and parenting Taash that Emmrich wishes to only be addressed by his name and nothing else. Taash 'eventually' accepts this with a snotty response of a huff and a 'fine,' with a grimace on their face.

This is important, as Taash being a Non-binary person, wouldn't want to be miss-gendered, if they chose to change their name, they wouldn't want to be called by anything different than what they wish to be called. The fact that this character was written in such a way, that it pained Taash to start calling Emmrich by his first name - something that should have been done to show respect for someone else regardless of how you felt about their magic. It reads as extremely hypocritical, because Emmrich never questions or belittles Taash for their Non-binary, and switches to affirm and accommodate them. Taash's inability to do the same is egregious.

The Third:

The entire Bharve scene. Not that Taash is to blame for this exactly. But, this falls very heavily onto the writers and people who thought this scene was appropriate at all. Having to do physical atonement for a simple mistake, as it was a simple mistake since within the timeline Taash is new at coming to terms with themselves, so to expect everyone around them to automatically make that switch in their brains all the time, is too much of an ask. It takes time for people to adapt and slot things into memory, especially since Isabella and Taash had years of history - a history where Taash was a "she" and not a "they/them."

It goes right along with the narrative that apologies aren't enough. The brand of thinking that causes divisiveness in real life. Isabella couldn't just apologize, she had to do ten push-ups to atone for her mistake.

Overall Taash was written with every stereotype that sets back Non-binary people. Immaturity, lack of empathy for differences, forces affirmation from everyone around them, won't address people as they wish to be addressed, but demands to be addressed a certain way. Then, simple apologies aren't enough for miss-gendering someone, you have to capitulate and prostrate yourself in front of them to make a true amends.

This character was written by someone that is LGBTQ+ they should have presented Taash's story a lot better than they did.

Dorian "worked" because he never outright stated he was gay, so anyone who's homophobic can actually try to ignore it. Taash just says it straight up that she's non-binary, so it's gonna piss off cry-wokers.

[Raz]

Originally posted by Baalf:

Dorian "worked" because he never outright stated he was gay, so anyone who's homophobic can actually try to ignore it. Taash just says it straight up that she's non-binary, so it's gonna piss off cry-wokers.

Isn't that Dorian doesn't straight up say he is gay (cause, he does once you take him to meet his father) its that it isn't his entire identity, nor is it something so world shattering important we need to know while dealing with actual world shattering problems.

[Demon of Razgriz]

Originally posted by krtansey81:

To anyone who thinks Taash's struggle with being nonbinary and having to figure out who she is doesn't belong in the game or isn't needed...you're all wrong. Could the writing be better, yes (and always in any game).

"I doubt that the developers foresaw that Taash's identity issues would cause such an uproar."

They absolutely did, and didn't give one iota, because that's who Bioware is. This is Bioware being true to themselves, the way they should be. Just like Taash needs to be, her character and story line are perfect for it. All of this follows in the trend of not just Bioware games and the Bioware crew, but especially Dragon Age itself. I can't be the only one who's read about the creators of the series and why LGBTQ issues are important to them, since many were themselves LGBTQ. They have continually strived to be more and more inclusive.

To anyone it bothers: 1, I'm glad it does and 2, if you don't like it, go play something else. Bioware will have plenty of sales without you, more than it they had not included it.

So you defend Taash and then misgender them in the same post you made "defending" them?

[Darrenb209]

Originally posted by Baalf:

Dorian "worked" because he never outright stated he was gay, so anyone who's homophobic can actually try to ignore it. Taash just says it straight up that she's non-binary, so it's gonna piss off cry-wokers.

Somebody makes a long post on blatant issues they noted with a character and your response is to interject with your own personal opinion based on nothing other than your own feelings to try and deflect.

That? That's why Veilguard failed to meet expectations. People like you were on the decision making team who hyper-fixated on one particular thing out of a long statement and then convinced themselves something was true based on nothing other than their own feelings on it.

And the thing is? We know that you're completely wrong. Kaidan Alenko was an openly gay character in the Mass Effect trilogy. Now, you might be thinking of going "but that was a different era" except the last content he was in was released in March 2013, a year and a half before Inquisition.

So we have proof that a well-written openly gay character would not have lead to widescale upset.

[Bankai9212]

That's false, Kaiden would be BI since male or female shep could romance them like Liara. But unlike this game Mass effect and origins didn't focus on sexual preference old writers wrote them to actual characters.

[GetUrAssToMars]

Originally posted by Baalf:

Dorian "worked" because he never outright stated he was gay, so anyone who's homophobic can actually try to ignore it. Taash just says it straight up that she's non-binary, so it's gonna piss off cry-wokers.

Doesn't it get boring being this one dimensional?

[JayS86]

Originally posted by Baalf:

Originally posted by JayS86:

I wouldn't have minded Taash's character if the writing of them were better. Dorian's character worked, because the language at which it was presented. The modern terminology was a distraction that detracted from the writing. These people were creative writers, they could have found a better more nuanced way for Taash to describe themselves. They chose to be blunt and intrusive about the presentation. It comes across as lazy. Dorian's arc was similar, but the writing was so much better. It incorporated the use of blood magic, his father's rank, and gave a good and distinct reason for the conflict between Dorian and his father, for which it needs resolved. It is also resolved fairly well, it isn't placed in the game as a strong narrative focal point with a span of a ton of in-game screen time.

You also had the choice to completely dismiss Dorian's feelings. You could have an entirely negative relationship with him if you so chose to go that route. I never did, as I found Dorian as one of the better written characters in Inquisition as a whole.

What makes Taash a weak character is that we're supposed to accept that this character is an adult. Instead they come across as a willfully ignorant and petulant child. I say willfully ignorant, because they contradict their own struggles by belittling other people who have different lifestyles and choices than their own.

There are glaring examples:

Neve is feminine and presents herself as a woman. Yet Taash can't accept that about her, a grown adult would know and accept that people are different, and move along without being fussy with a ton of apathy. Taash knows they are different in their own mind, yet confused about it, but somehow cannot accept that Neve likes to present herself as a woman, doesn't find fault in being one, and doesn't feel she needs to change what she feels like presenting as to the world. It was to the point where Taash even says: "No one likes to be a woman..." which I found incredibly insulting to every female character around them. Taash gets barely any correction for this behavior, instead Rook and Neve fall over themselves trying to understand Taash's point of view, to the detriment of their own feelings on the matter. They affirm Taash's reasoning, to the point where Neve and if your Rook is female, don't get to put much weight into the argument at all.

The second:

Emmrich and Taash were having a disagreement. Taash refuses to stop calling him a death mage, a corpse mage. They didn't like the magic that Emmrich was doing, it freaked them out. Understandable, as necromages could come across as such. Instead though, Taash refuses to call him by his first name. To the point where Emmrich and her have a distinct disagreement. An adult would see fault with their behavior especially seeing how important it is for Emmrich to be called and spoken to as they prefer. It takes Rook stepping in and parenting Taash that Emmrich wishes to only be addressed by his name and nothing else. Taash 'eventually' accepts this with a snotty response of a huff and a 'fine,' with a grimace on their face.

This is important, as Taash being a Non-binary person, wouldn't want to be miss-gendered, if they chose to change their name, they wouldn't want to be called by anything different than what they wish to be called. The fact that this character was written in such a way, that it pained Taash to start calling Emmrich by his first name - something that should have been done to show respect for someone else regardless of how you felt about their magic. It reads as extremely hypocritical, because Emmrich never questions or belittles Taash for their Non-binary, and switches to affirm and accommodate them. Taash's inability to do the same is egregious.

The Third:

The entire Bharve scene. Not that Taash is to blame for this exactly. But, this falls very heavily onto the writers and people who thought this scene was appropriate at all. Having to do physical atonement for a simple mistake, as it was a simple mistake since within the timeline Taash is new at coming to terms with themselves, so to expect everyone around them to automatically make that switch in their brains all the time, is too much of an ask. It takes time for people to adapt and slot things into memory, especially since Isabella and Taash had years of history - a history where Taash was a "she" and not a "they/them."

It goes right along with the narrative that apologies aren't enough. The brand of thinking that causes divisiveness in real life. Isabella couldn't just apologize, she had to do ten push-ups to atone for her mistake.

Overall Taash was written with every stereotype that sets back Non-binary people. Immaturity, lack of empathy for differences, forces affirmation from everyone around them, won't address people as they wish to be addressed, but demands to be addressed a certain way. Then, simple apologies aren't enough for miss-gendering someone, you have to capitulate and prostrate yourself in front of them to make a true amends.

This character was written by someone that is LGBTQ+ they should have presented Taash's story a lot better than they did.

Dorian "worked" because he never outright stated he was gay, so anyone who's homophobic can actually try to ignore it. Taash just says it straight up that she's non-binary, so it's gonna piss off cry-wokers.

You're wrong, Dorian says: I prefer the company of men. Also, when his father pressured him into marrying a woman anyway, Dorian also states that he refused to play pretend. That was the sole reason his father attempted to use blood magic on him, in order to change him. He explains all of this, but it was done better. There was no modern language and when that issue resolved, there was no more discussion on it. Dorian simply existed in the world created around him. Taash doesn't work because it feels like the world was partly revolving around Taash and we had to sit there and live through it all, in one state of mind. We were forced to affirm Taash as well, there wasn't a chance for Rook to disagree with, or to cause tension. If you want to write stories without choice, fine, but you can't sit and call it an RPG when all choice and consequence is taken away for the sole purpose of messaging.

[krtansey81]

"What delusional world are you in? EA announced the game flopped. They empirically are not getting plenty of sales. Game went on 40% off a few days after EA admitted it isn't selling."

Actually, most ratings say it was a success, just not a massive one. I'm good with that. It follows in the trend the old Bioware team wanted it to. Are there problems, with the game, yes like any. But for anyone who has been playing Bioware games for more than 5 years, you know the trends they said they wanted to follow. Bioware was basically the first company to really focus on everyone feeling like they could identify with someone in an RPG game. If that's not what your looking for, look else where. The original writers of Inquisition, and previous, would feel this game follows the trend they were trying to establish. They don't care that including trans options or non-binary might offend you, nor should they. They are staying true to what they felt this came should represent, and as always they made sure it was possible for you not to have to include much of that part of the story if you didn't want to. If you can't handle it, there are plenty of other game you can go play. No game caters to everyone. Far more people would be complaining if the game didn't include LGBTQ options. Any survey of how many people who bought this game are LGBTQ or support them will settle that argument.

[krtansey81]

2. Judging from what we know of the sales and what EA has already announced about the game's future--no DLC and Patch 5 is the end of their support--good luck with that.

No DLC was planned originally, if you'd been following the games production, you would have known that. It was known when it was released.

Plus, unlike so many other games that release with so many bugs, Bioware produces things that start at great place. I loved Balders Gate 3, but it had so many errors, and took so long to finish that I was starting to get bored with it by the time it finally fully released. Bioware has a positive reputation for releasing games that are largely bug free. I don't think it needs any more updates. So your "insults" are simply praise to the people who made a largely bug-free game to begin with. That's what happens when you have good programmers.

We also have a large enough modding community to take care of any further issues after that (even if it's not an easy game to mod).

[krtansey81]

"my god dude, i thought that this comment was made months ago. but you just like being wrong...... i mean, i should have realized that, its what your kind does best, "feelings over facts" right?"

Feelings over facts? How long have you been playing Bioware games of any kind? Here's a fact: My husband (then boyfriend at the time) was one of the original testers for Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition. For the first, they would have video conferences about what was going well and needed changing. The creators of Bioware, for both Dragon Age and Mass Effect, had a mission as they released each game in both series. They stuck to that goal even if it meant they would rub some the wrong way. They thought what they wanted to accomplish in the world or RPG was more important, and they were right. I would always want someone who stuck to what they believed in rather than roll over and give up their dreams for a larger profit margin. Even if I didn't agree with their beliefs, I would still respect that conviction.

Also what is "my kind?" You know nothing. I teach science and math for college and high school: I'm as factual as they get.