Lack of stealth for rogues

[kaffeend]

Seems like this could have been in the game. Maybe they couldn't implement it properly? Rogue doesn't really feel like a rogue in Veilguard. It just feels like a dual wielding warrior. Stealth could have made the rogue truly good, with heavy sneak attack bonuses, but as it is I'm really disappointed.

[Gloomseeker]

Rogues in DA have been veering towards that for a while now.

Remember that back in DAO we could make a rogue archer or a warrior archer, a rogue dual wielder or a warrior dual wielder.

Ever since DA2 weapon types have become associated with a particular class.

I don't like it personally because the most fun I had was with a heavy armoured mace wielding rogue in DAO.

At least we get some vanishing effect while dodging in the Veilguard.

[kaffeend]

Originally posted by Gloomseeker:

Rogues in DA have been veering towards that for a while now.

Remember that back in DAO we could make a rogue archer or a warrior archer, a rogue dual wielder or a warrior dual wielder.

Ever since DA2 weapon types have become associated with a particular class.

I don't like it personally because the most fun I had was with a heavy armoured mace wielding rogue in DAO.

At least we get some vanishing effect while dodging in the Veilguard.

Yeah, I do like the dodge "mist form" quite a bit. But there are other things missing from our toolkit, too. Lockpicking, trap disarming, etc., there's no utility to this class anymore. No dialogue options to lie or trick, either.

[Johnny Hazard]

Mass effect sharpshooter class had stealth. It was an awesome mechanic.
Rogues should have a stealth ability, and use it for a sniper shot, or backstab.
Clearly, they/them devs are a bunch of untalented chumps.

[Gloomseeker]

Rogues in DA are not the D&D type anymore, they are the high DPS MMO type.

That's a different concept and some of us may not like that but it's a concept that you can find in other CRPGs as well (the first that comes to mind would be Pillars of Eternity which is definitely not an action RPG btw).

[Meowsworth]

I really wanted to sneak and steal, but, yeah.... I guess it's not a part of this game?
I've never played DA before, but I probably wouldn't have picked a rogue if I knew that wasn't going to be part of the deal.

[zpc]

Originally posted by Lillypetals:

I really wanted to sneak and steal, but, yeah.... I guess it's not a part of this game?
I've never played DA before, but I probably wouldn't have picked a rogue if I knew that wasn't going to be part of the deal.

Dragon Age Origins had those classic rogue elements.

Originally posted by Sciophyte:

If memory serves, stealth was never a big thing in the DA games. Was lockpicking? I can't seem to recall. Well, at least we get poison—that's always been one of my favorite toys as a rogue.

Dragon Age Origins had:
- Stealth for combat / combat preparation
- Lockpicking (skill has to match lock level, then auto-success - otherwise no access)
- Pickpocketing (once per victim, sometimes awesome loot like enchanted weapons)
- Poison for combat
- Trap disarm (lockpicking skill)

[Sentient_Toaster]

Rogues are basically light fighters -- mobile, agile, hit and run. You can build for bow use, you can build for melee, but you're expected to move fast and look for openings rather than sneak or tank. That said, there are areas where you can certainly whittle down enemies with charged bow shots from high ground at range (your arrows will go slightly further than the range indicated by your targeting reticle turning red, but not much AFAICT) for an edge.

Regarding stealth, the particularly funny part is that

(1) there is a mission where the quest giver explicitly tells you go discreetly destroy caches of explosives, but the only approach you're allowed is the maximally indiscreet approach of "murder the guards and ignite the explosives where they are", and

(2) there is an entirely separate mission where you spend most of it disguised in order to pass through crowds of enemies without them noticing you, and where one of your companions bluffs your way when you're stopped

So, it's not like they didn't consider stealth at all... but in at least one case where you're asked to be discreet, you actually can't.

[Meowsworth]

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

Rogues are basically light fighters -- mobile, agile, hit and run. You can build for bow use, you can build for melee, but you're expected to move fast and look for openings rather than sneak or tank. That said, there are areas where you can certainly whittle down enemies with charged bow shots from high ground at range (your arrows will go slightly further than the range indicated by your targeting reticle turning red, but not much AFAICT) for an edge.

Such a bummer.
Did BG3 just ruin me for other games?
I never thought I'd have to check if the rogues actually rogue before rolling a character.

[GM Morgan]

Originally posted by Lillypetals:

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

Rogues are basically light fighters -- mobile, agile, hit and run. You can build for bow use, you can build for melee, but you're expected to move fast and look for openings rather than sneak or tank. That said, there are areas where you can certainly whittle down enemies with charged bow shots from high ground at range (your arrows will go slightly further than the range indicated by your targeting reticle turning red, but not much AFAICT) for an edge.

Such a bummer.
Did BG3 just ruin me for other games?
I never thought I'd have to check if the rogues actually rogue before rolling a character.

I play a lot of CRPGs and almost all of them have 0 or bad stealth mechanics. I think they’d have added a lot of replay value if the classes played that differently that you could play rogue as a stealth action game.

[Gloomseeker]

Originally posted by Lillypetals:

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

Rogues are basically light fighters -- mobile, agile, hit and run. You can build for bow use, you can build for melee, but you're expected to move fast and look for openings rather than sneak or tank. That said, there are areas where you can certainly whittle down enemies with charged bow shots from high ground at range (your arrows will go slightly further than the range indicated by your targeting reticle turning red, but not much AFAICT) for an edge.

Such a bummer.
Did BG3 just ruin me for other games?
I never thought I'd have to check if the rogues actually rogue before rolling a character.

That comment is actually pretty funny because Rogues in BG3 don't really get special thieving abilities (since everyone can gain access to Stealth and Sleight of Hand) with the exception of sneak attacks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the Rogue class (especially in DAO) but if there is one game in which they've been made redundant it's BG3 unless you go for certain builds that will benefit from the extra action unlocked by sinking 3 levels in the Thief subclass and stopping there (or at level 4 for that extra feat).

[kaffeend]

I'm just sayin'... having a stealth mechanic (and various other rogue utility) in Veilguard would make it vastly more replayable, in my humble opinion. If some doors and chests actually had locks. If there were traps. If you could lay traps. Disarm traps. Hell, if we had some flanking system in place (I'm not sure here. There might be flanking, but it isn't expressly mentioned at all), the game would be much more fun to play as different classes.

[Johnny Hazard]

Originally posted by Gloomseeker:

Rogues in DA are not the D&D type anymore, they are the high DPS MMO type.

That's a different concept and some of us may not like that but it's a concept that you can find in other CRPGs as well (the first that comes to mind would be Pillars of Eternity which is definitely not an action RPG btw).

If memory serves, stealth was never a big thing in the DA games. Was lockpicking? I can't seem to recall. Well, at least we get poison—that's always been one of my favorite toys as a rogue.

No. DAO rogues had stealth. You could separate your rogue from the team, and advance in stealth to check new locations. You could disarm traps, collect them, and arm them. Then you could use stealth to lure enemies out of a mob, guide them through traps and into your team formation. Rogues were highly tactical in DAO, not just a chump for high damage glass cannon class.
One of the funniest things was collecting enough traps to "ambush" the elder dragon, and make it land over your minefield for insta-death.
That type of versatility was what made DAO great.

[Gloomseeker]

Originally posted by Sciophyte:

Originally posted by Johnny Hazard:

No. DAO rogues had stealth. You could separate your rogue from the team, and advance in stealth to check new locations. You could disarm traps, collect them, and arm them. Then you could use stealth to lure enemies out of a mob, guide them through traps and into your team formation. Rogues were highly tactical in DAO, not just a chump for high damage glass cannon class.
One of the funniest things was collecting enough traps to "ambush" the elder dragon, and make it land over your minefield for insta-death.
That type of versatility was what made DAO great.

Holy crap, how could I forget all that? Must replay DA:O sometime soon.

Don't forget that some encounters would trigger cutscenes and break stealth thus messing up your entire plans.

I love DAO but it had its flaws.

[kaffeend]

Originally posted by kaffeend:

Originally posted by Gloomseeker:

Don't forget that some encounters would trigger cutscenes and break stealth thus messing up your entire plans.

I love DAO but it had its flaws.

Every BioWare game ever had that. Remember the stealth belts in KoTOR? It'd always happen just before a fight.

Edit: What makes this so bad in Veilguard is that enemy rogues do have stealth and sneak attack.

Edit #2: I just replied to my own post, rather than editing it. Note to self: don't post when you've just woken up.

[belangf]

The lack of out-of-combat stealth was a big disappointment in Inquisition for me after playing Origins. For Veilguard it feels fine as it is just a combat action game anyway. The rogue fighting style is a lot more satisfying in Veilguard compared to Inquisition in my opinion. But yes, the rogue is essentially just a Dex fighter in Veilguard.