Ships are Too Squirrelly

[Rhyme1428]

So, I've cleared the campaign, and I've been delving into War Games, and I have two complaints.

First and foremost, frigates are too squirrely.
-- Torp Frigates:
These ships seem incapable of just standing and delivering their payloads when something is charging them down. Instead they run off for tens of kilometers in a (sometimes futile) attempt to keep their target at max range. All well and good when that target is another frigate or slower capital ship that they outrange. But during War Games, when I have them on Anti-Corvette duties (which they handle quite well otherwise...) they're constantly way out of position and getting pummeled by corvettes that they can't outrun and could easily obliterate if they JUST STOOD STILL AND FIRED. Instead I spend a majority of my time wrangling them back to the main group.... Only to have them wander off again when I issue another attack command.
-- Ion Frigates:
Similarly to Torp Frigates, they seem incapable of just SHOOTING THEIR GUNS. I was just in a level where there was an objective inside a cave system, with multiple anti-cap and anti-fighter turrets and EIGHT frigates (my entire complement of available frigates for my loadout) sitting atop the objective. My plan WAS to position my Ion Frigates above the higher group of enemy frigs and snipe them from above... But the Ion Frigs decided they'd rather descend into the cave system instead and risk obliteration. This is not optimal.... Or necessary. Why can't frigates JUST STAND STILL? Why were they trying to be 'on level' with their targets? This is space and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to pitch up/down and fire--please just let them stand still and fire.
-- Assault Frigates:
The biggest offender of the "Can't stand still" issue. During the campaign I lost multiple wings of Assault Frigates because an attack order would be issued, the massed fleet would begin attacking... And then the Assault Frigates would wander off in some weird orbit or attempt to enclose the target. This then put them outside the range of the Support Frigates I would have following the group, and they would pop. During War Games this is less apparent, but these frigates still try to orbit their targets for... Some reason, often sending them out into the aether for no apparent reason. Stand. Still.

I don't know how or why the entire ship class of Frigates (for Hiigarans, at least. I've not tried Incarnate fleet yet) seems COMPLETELY incapable of NOT MOVING, but it is very frustrating during game play to watch ships die because they 'took the initiative' and wandered off to their own demise. There are certainly situations where a "run and gun" style of movement may be good and helpful (mostly for Torp Frigs out ranging something and beating it into oblivion), but it should not be default. Please let us use the Passive/Neutral/Aggressive status to control this behaviour, at least.

My second complaint is that Rail Corvettes are useless.

In another instance of the same level referenced for Ion Frigates, I was using a "Strike Craft Fleet" comp, and my response against massed frigate groups like this was going to be Rail Corvettes. However, these ships seem to have an abysmally short range for "Sniper" units, and exhibited the precise same behaviour as Ion Frigates--they descended into the cavern to be slaughtered. I attempted to salvage the situation with Bombers, but they were promptly melted by the Anti-Fighter towers also positioned in this scenario.

To be clear: the scenarios don't seem too difficult. The issue is that the units native behaviours seem suicidal by design. Allow units to pitch up/down on their axes and fire their weapons without NEEDING to be on the same relative plane as their targets, and cut down on the dipping, ducking, diving, dodging, and ducking the frigates perform. Rail Corvettes need a re-work. Their niche is viable... But only if they receive significant bonuses to range. Otherwise the targets will simply melt the corvettes en route and then resume whatever the target was doing previously.

[Valnak]

You perfectly explained my main issues with ship behavior. Thank you.

[Laser]

i made a similar post, but this is better.
the main problem with all the divergent ship behaviour is you cant cover one ships weakness with another ships strength, carefully constructed fleets scatter the moment you issue an attack order.

[Valnak]

Originally posted by LaserReaper:

i made a similar post, but this is better.

I tried several times to add my opinions to it, but it's just perfect. There's really nothing to add.

Originally posted by LaserReaper:

the main problem with all the divergent ship behaviour is you cant cover one ships weakness with another ships strength, carefully constructed fleets scatter the moment you issue an attack order.

I found a few sorta-workarounds.
-If you focus on range upgrades they usually work pretty well. Only works for things like strike craft and I suppose corvettes, but I don't really use corvettes. They're too expensive when they just die like strike craft.
-If you just repeatedly set your ships to aggressive and no formation they sometimes eventually break off and act like you think they should.
-Sphere formation is great for targeting that big giant titan or battlecruiser, but your ships will probably die because they're not doing that obsessive orbiting thing that reduces a lot of incoming damage.
-As a result of the really horrific "constantly readjusting" thing, turreted ships (assault beam frigates!) are just by far the best.

[Rhyme1428]

Originally posted by LaserReaper:

i made a similar post, but this is better.
the main problem with all the divergent ship behaviour is you cant cover one ships weakness with another ships strength, carefully constructed fleets scatter the moment you issue an attack order.

I crossposted this to their discord as well on a thread started by another user, and it has been brought to Dev attention.

I think there are a few things going on here:
1. Non-strike craft ships are too quick to move to try and maintain range/satisfy whatever AI attributes they have.
2. Formations are both too strict and yet not strict enough. I mean that I've also observed Torp Frigates trying to move into formation with a formation leader that is actively running as fast as its little engines can carry it away from the target. This means, in practice, that the members of the formation trying to move into formation are never firing. HOWEVER, once IN formation... The ships are then free to fall out of formation again and roam to their little hearts' content.

Here is the discord thread on the Homeworld Universe Discord: https://discord.com/channels/128196211969753088/1238954479194214561

[Kyathab]

Ye, ive just finished the Campaign and frankly the unit AI seems CRAP. I've given attack move orders and direct attack orders just for some units to ignore those orders. Forced to give em several times.

The gameplay overall doesn't feel nearly as good as Homeworld 2 which is sad.

[tennesay]

I fully agree. It is really annoying and needs to be looked into.

[Mastermatta]

Very much agree

Perhaps a new stance where the rules of engagement are similar to the neutral stance but they stand ground and rotate but don't move.

[FidiFox]

These points apply to Incarnate ships too. Multi-beam frigates and smart missile especially.
Beam Fighters are also completely useless, as they can't hit their targets and thus do no damage (and the voice feedback is using carrier lines).
While I've found the core idea of War Games very nice, the ship movement ai and balacing is completely unacceptable and ruins a the fun in it.

[Overread]

You know I felt there was something off with ship targeting and I think you've nailed it. IT might even be that the AI is trying to be so efficient with targeting that its tripping over itself and such.

But yeah I've seen a few ships getting confused even with a simple target of a slow moving capital ship. Enough that you can see the ship struggling to work out what its supposed to be doing even with an easy target.

[Overread]

Originally posted by Mastermatta:

Very much agree

Perhaps a new stance where the rules of engagement are similar to the neutral stance but they stand ground and rotate but don't move.

I don't think a new stance is the solution; a revision to targeting and movement priorities and controls is more needed. A new stance would be a patch over an existing issue and in theory improving the targeting system and ship control benefits players and the AI

[Mastermatta]

Originally posted by Overread:

Originally posted by Mastermatta:

Very much agree

Perhaps a new stance where the rules of engagement are similar to the neutral stance but they stand ground and rotate but don't move.

I don't think a new stance is the solution; a revision to targeting and movement priorities and controls is more needed. A new stance would be a patch over an existing issue and in theory improving the targeting system and ship control benefits players and the AI

Thing is a noticed ai ships dont really have the same problem. And when computer controlled missile ships do try to kite other units they dont do the odd turn around run behavior.

Even if they fix the targeting and movement priorities I still would like a seperate stand ground stance that doesnt have passive rules of engagement.

[VinBG]

+1

[Peter_One59]

Yes! Having to micromanage every single type of ship so it doesn't act like an idiot is tiresome...
I also find it ridiculous that I had to follow an enemy ship all the way to the end of the map edges repeatedly because it kept running away to get into it's optimal range...

[Overread]

Originally posted by Peter_One59:

Yes! Having to micromanage every single type of ship so it doesn't act like an idiot is tiresome...
I also find it ridiculous that I had to follow an enemy ship all the way to the end of the map edges repeatedly because it kept running away to get into it's optimal range...

Actually an enemy ship running away from you to stay at its optimum range away from your ship is perfectly logical. That's totally fine and what the ship should be doing.

A long range ship should try and back-off to stay at optimal range and avoid closer engaging enemies.

The issues come if the AI does nothing else but that; or if the ship is being a bit nuts with its range and movement which causes it to move around and get confused rather than sit there and fire.

Eg I'm sure I see destroyers attacking getting "confused" and moving around and not firing when they are perfectly within range to fire. Almost like they are sitting perfectly on their maximum range, but any tiny motion from them or the target causes them to fall off range and suddenly they've got to cancel the attack animation and reposition to that perfect distance, start fir - oh it moved so I've got to move - rinse and repeat.

Which is doubly odd because I'm sure they are well within maximum range so should be able to fire with impunity.

[Hayes]

Totaly agree This is infuriating... i want my ships to stay in formation and stay close to my carrier