The Drunk Challenge is a good example of horrible game design

[cracatoa]

Sad considering so much of this Idle Spiral is done well. Just because something is hard doesn't make it 1. Challenging or 2. Fun. This "challenge" is neither challenging nor fun, and therefore has no business in a "game".

Come on dev. Fix this trash.

[archmag]

Why Drunk challenge specifically? It's not worse than Slow Spiral or Straight Line so I don't see why it is bad while the other two are fine. And it is not even hard as long as you understand what is happening.

[Oriomo]

I don't mind the randomness, it makes for some cool spiral effects. However, I've been on one of these challenges for a couple days, and I'm starting to realize that this game is much more directed towards people who like math than people who like idle games, which is a shame, in my opinion, since the genre is pretty niche as it is. The w prestige should increase the minimum and the maximum of the random range, or should be removed altogether if it does nothing but reset your progress, I don't care if it tells you that w prestige doesn't do something, it comes off as lazy or poorly thought out.
I love people that use "it isn't hard" to flex in an online forum, if it's easy for you, just go have it easy and piss off from posts like these. Your finding it easy doesn't change how anyone else finds it, unless you're going to start explaining things, but something tells me you'd be terrible at that.

[ɧ4ɾɗվ.]

check any other thread here and you´ll see that archmag is the single person that helps the most everywhere! :P
I love people that have no clue and attack others without knowing anything about them! ;)


The only thing you need to know for these 2 Challenges (Drunk + Slow):

w has an exponent, like w² for example.

if w is bigger than 1, the exponent makes the value exponentially larger, the higher w is:
w=2, exponent=2 -> 2² = 2*2 = 4
w=2, exponent=3 -> 2³ = 2*2*2 = 8
w=2 ,exponent=4 -> 2^4 = 2*2*2*2 = 16
etc.

if w is lower than 1, the exponent makes the value exponentially lower, the lower w is:
w=0.5, exponent=2 -> 0.5² = 0.5*0.5 = 0.25
w=0.5, exponent=3 -> 0.5³ = 0.5*0.5*0.5 = 0.125
w=0.2, exponent=2 -> 0.2² = 0.2*0.2 = 0.04
w=0.1, exponent=3 -> 0.1³ = 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001
etc.

So you want to have the exponent as low as possible if your w is lower than 1
Aswell as you want to have the exponent as high as possible if w is higher than 1

There´s that Boost-Button, maybe it helps, you could try!
But i didn´t use it for Drunk at all, i just let the game idle for very long.
The Boost-Button helps with Flower-Challenge, though.

Straight Line Challenge is undoable at the moment, as w=0, meaning the whole formula gets multiplied by 0, which means it is 0...except the "+k"-part at the end, so the whole formula is just "k".
There´s no way to get k high enough to do even the first challenge.
To be said: There is "r-Uprade 12", which increases deltaR to the sum of all upgrade levels...but even with that it´s not enough at all.

[archmag]

Originally posted by ɧ4ɾɗվ.:

check any other thread here and you´ll see that archmag is the single person that helps the most everywhere! :P
I love people that have no clue and attack others without knowing anything about them! ;)

Thanks for support. I do answer questions but only when people ask them, here they didn't ask any questions and just started insulting the game and people because they as they claim don't understand the math. Normal person just asks a question, insecure people seem to just rage on others.

The only thing you need to know for these 2 Challenges (Drunk + Slow):

The main thing why I said the challenge was not hard is because it is completed in exactly the same way that people play the game. It doesn't add anything specific that you need to take care of. You get your multiplier higher -> you pass the challenge. There is nothing special to do.

To do the first omega prestige in normal game you need to get a certain amount of R by waiting while it accumulates with a fixed omega.

To complete the Drunk challenge you need to get a certain amount of R by waiting while it accumulates with a randomly changing omega. It sure changes, but that only affects the speed of accumulation, sometimes it goes faster than usual, sometimes slower. How is it harder than normal game when it is exactly the same, just requires higher multipliers and that's all.

What you need to know when playing the game and/or doing challenges (not specific to drunk one) is that you shouldn't spend your resources on things that don't help. If you are halfway through to your goal there is no reason to spend all R that you collected on buying the upgrade that increases your deltaR by 1%. You will go faster after buying it but not enough to be worth it.

Straight Line Challenge is undoable at the moment, as w=0, meaning the whole formula gets multiplied by 0, which means it is 0...except the "+k"-part at the end, so the whole formula is just "k".
There´s no way to get k high enough to do even the first challenge.

Don't forget about all other multipliers that increase deltaR directly:
1. z and the first z upgrade,
2. z-reactor's first option,
3. tornado prestige's bonus to delta r and delta z (which due to first bonus also affects delta r),
4. a new Sinkhole bonus that increases delta r based on time.

There are also few extra ways to increase k a little:
1. 12th upgrade in P sections that adds exponent to k turning it into k^2 at max level,
2. passive 50% bonus that you can buy in Store using daily rewards, which only gives 2.25 total increase combined with the 1st option.

This one is the hard challenge because even when I am past the current content (T26 while content ends at T18) I still only completed 2/5 levels of it because it is hard to find any multipliers which can be increased significantly to help with it (farming k is significantly harder than farming a or b for the Drunk one). Will be trying next level after I reach T27 as I did increase my delta z significantly since last time, just don't want to reset at the middle of a very long run to T27.

Edit: nvm. Tried it again. 3/5 Straight Line still looks impossible without waiting too long. Each P reset lets me increase deltaR by 8x, but requires 10x more P each time. Increasing deltaR by 8x increases deltaP by 2x, so I still need to wait 5x longer between each reset. First one was at about 10 minutes, second around an hour, so I expect third will be in five hours and 4th in a day. But deltaR after 2 resets is at 14Sp while I need 999Dc, which means it will require waiting 800years to get there. If I do two more P resets it will reduce the time by 64x which will still be at least 10 year. So I'll go back to farming and leave this challenge for much later.

[ɧ4ɾɗվ.]

Thanks for letting us know there´s a way to beat Straight Line at all. :)
Only at T-22 here , so i will try a lot later myself!

Currently working on No Rebirth 5/5...afterwards only 4/5 and 5/5 Gluttony left, aswell as Straight Line of course.

But i am farming a bit of Attack-Speed for the first time now via Gamma, which actually raises ATK-Speed, unlike the Spiral Equation Multiplier, which was so unerwhelming after i finally unlocked it...it only adds a percentage of the Base ATK-Speed i guess?! (level 177 here, 2.25%...and 2.25% of the Base ~4% amounts in almost nothing)
Got a "+0.1% Attack Speed"-Node and run with it, because i also got high Omega-Rolls (4 times 0.9).
Is there a "+0.2 AS"-Node aswell? I seem to remember i stumbled upon one before, but i could misremember here.

Why i wrote about the exponent at all was because i had completed the drunk challenge a long time ago...and i already forgot if w goes below 1 or not, while fluctuating, btw.

[archmag]

Originally posted by ɧ4ɾɗվ.:

Thanks for letting us know there´s a way to beat Straight Line at all. :)

Yeah, first two levels are possible when you start farming Gamma but later 3 seem very hard and basically impossible at least until new rewards are added. Farming k is so slow and is not really needed for progression so hard to dedicate some time to do it just to get an extra bonus for k itself.

Currently working on No Rebirth 5/5...afterwards only 4/5 and 5/5 Gluttony left, aswell as Straight Line of course.

Nice. I have 5/5 Gluttony left (clear level 399 Gamma while I only make it to around 100 after leaving it for a while when farming) and 3/5, 4/5, 5/5 in Straight Line.

Is there a "+0.2 AS"-Node aswell? I seem to remember i stumbled upon one before, but i could misremember here.

There is! I got my attack speed to +300% now. It is so nice to farm with 4x speed. The only problem is I have to refresh more often because of that so it feels bad going back to farm Pi as I always end up refreshing it too late when I am more than hundred of levels past one-shots.

By my estimate you need to refresh 1010 times on average to get 0.1% or 0.2% attack speed in Gamma and 2020 times for 0.2%. So a lot of time is spent rerolling there. I use two Enter buttons to reroll which allows me to use both hands at once, but when some other rare reward pops up I have to use mouse for several clicks to skip it. There seems to be 8 rare rewards in Gamma in total. 0.1% and 0.2% to three parts of delta z and same for attack speed.

Why i wrote about the exponent at all was because i had completed the drunk challenge a long time ago...and i already forgot if w goes below 1 or not, while fluctuating, btw.

It depends on difficulty. For 5/5 it is always below 1 so all those Skip one omega prestige bonuses from several challenges actually hurt you because you start with increased exponent of omega from the beginning. Well, at least the requirements are not that high so it is possible to completely finish it early (and also hurt yourself in Slow Spiral challenge by increasing the exponent for omega permanently).

[Raethor]

Maybe they could add an option to turn off the w skip rewards, since in a few challenges they actually seem to hurt a lot more than they help.

[cracatoa]

Originally posted by ɧ4ɾɗվ.:

check any other thread here and you´ll see that archmag is the single person that helps the most everywhere! :P
I love people that have no clue and attack others without knowing anything about them! ;)


The only thing you need to know for these 2 Challenges (Drunk + Slow):

w has an exponent, like w² for example.

if w is bigger than 1, the exponent makes the value exponentially larger, the higher w is:
w=2, exponent=2 -> 2² = 2*2 = 4
w=2, exponent=3 -> 2³ = 2*2*2 = 8
w=2 ,exponent=4 -> 2^4 = 2*2*2*2 = 16
etc.

if w is lower than 1, the exponent makes the value exponentially lower, the lower w is:
w=0.5, exponent=2 -> 0.5² = 0.5*0.5 = 0.25
w=0.5, exponent=3 -> 0.5³ = 0.5*0.5*0.5 = 0.125
w=0.2, exponent=2 -> 0.2² = 0.2*0.2 = 0.04
w=0.1, exponent=3 -> 0.1³ = 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001
etc.

So you want to have the exponent as low as possible if your w is lower than 1
Aswell as you want to have the exponent as high as possible if w is higher than 1

There´s that Boost-Button, maybe it helps, you could try!
But i didn´t use it for Drunk at all, i just let the game idle for very long.
The Boost-Button helps with Flower-Challenge, though.

Straight Line Challenge is undoable at the moment, as w=0, meaning the whole formula gets multiplied by 0, which means it is 0...except the "+k"-part at the end, so the whole formula is just "k".
There´s no way to get k high enough to do even the first challenge.
To be said: There is "r-Uprade 12", which increases deltaR to the sum of all upgrade levels...but even with that it´s not enough at all.

Thank you, this is a great explanation. It seemed 100% random, but I missed some of this without a doubt.

[cracatoa]

Oh, but also...it does seem like you can get some awful luck. I've had w flip to <1 and sit there for hours it seems. It'll pop up above it for a second or two, but it seems to get stuck below 1 quite often and for very long periods. The first time I ran it as soon as it unlocked, it wasn't quick, but it was much faster than it is now.

[archmag]

Originally posted by cracatoa:

Oh, but also...it does seem like you can get some awful luck. I've had w flip to <1 and sit there for hours it seems. It'll pop up above it for a second or two, but it seems to get stuck below 1 quite often and for very long periods. The first time I ran it as soon as it unlocked, it wasn't quick, but it was much faster than it is now.

Maybe you are trying another tier now. The amplitude of omega drops on higher tiers of challenge. At 5/5 you shouldn't see omega>1 at all.

[ɧ4ɾɗվ.]

Originally posted by cracatoa:

Oh, but also...it does seem like you can get some awful luck. I've had w flip to <1 and sit there for hours it seems. It'll pop up above it for a second or two, but it seems to get stuck below 1 quite often and for very long periods. The first time I ran it as soon as it unlocked, it wasn't quick, but it was much faster than it is now.

This just sounds like a bug, though!
Not a Bug! But just your very Computer-Setup not complying to this Game at all.
"for hours" -> shouldn´t be! ;) It is fluctuating all the time, should change on a 60 hertz-base (60fps) or whatever the game is set to, about to update per second!
(Sorry, 35+ years pro-game-gameDev/-coder here!)

[ɧ4ɾɗվ.]

Just do NOT Omega-Prestige, as this makes your exponent for w bigger, w being smaller than 1 (see my first post) meaning it gets even lower, exponentially, makes it slower the more you up the exponent for w via Omega-Prestige, which makes the exponent higher!

What a confusing, to be read several times, sentence this is! Only math makes it possible! :D

[Warpstrike]

The Drunk challenge gets easier the higher your Tornado Prestige gets.

[OrangeMade]

@cracatoa You know, I thought, while 'fun' might not be the right word, that the Drunk Challenge was interesting and entertaining due to the random variance of how the path moved. It made some very interesting designs, especially when the multiplier was on.

For me part of the fun of this game is the 'Ooooo, pretty' factor.

So please do not speak in absolutes, since you are NOT speaking for everyone.

[eUndun]

Originally posted by archmag:

Originally posted by cracatoa:

Oh, but also...it does seem like you can get some awful luck. I've had w flip to <1 and sit there for hours it seems. It'll pop up above it for a second or two, but it seems to get stuck below 1 quite often and for very long periods. The first time I ran it as soon as it unlocked, it wasn't quick, but it was much faster than it is now.

Maybe you are trying another tier now. The amplitude of omega drops on higher tiers of challenge. At 5/5 you shouldn't see omega>1 at all.

it's offtop but i saw that you helping) pls say how can i unlock new upgrades in battle upgrades menu? for me it's only 24 basic ones but other is locked...