WTF is wrong with rare drops

[Zairev]

Seriously, how does that work? When i unlocked Beta, i got rare +300 regeneration, and rare +200% K at Kappa or Alpha, cant remember which one. But since then, i literally never ever even saw these bonuses again. I spent like 6 hours past 2 days literally only by clicking reroll (which is anything but fun), and these bonuses never appeared again. They literally ceased to exist. I even got the DLC rare drop boost. I dont need rare +0.1a at beta, when theres common +10a right next to it...

Srlsly, make these rare usefull and dont remove bonuses after first farm. I wanted to do straight line challenge, but without any K boost, i cant even touch it even tho i am like 6 Tiers beyod the current content.

[archmag]

There were no "+200% k" ever. There was "+9% k" at most in Kappa. I farmed it a lot while it was available and have "+4.95K% k" now. Then there was a patch and suddenly the most you can get is "+2% k", so I guess it was nerfed because it was too good. Same with +400 regen in Beta. I run it few times, have 7.7k base regen now but I don't remember seeing it recently while I was farming Beta again. So I guess it was nerfed too, either regen was fully removed or max possible value dropped to 100 or something (not sure if I have seen those either). But now I can see +1 regen in training which I didn't see while I was actively farming it in the very beginning.

I also think that removing some higher values also reduced a chance for them appearing at all. Like if you had a chance to drop 45 different rares, 9 of which were "+% k" and now you have only 2 of those, your chance to get any "+% k" dropped from 9/45=20% to 2/38=5%. But I am not sure how those drops work and I didn't do any actual tests about this, just guessing based on a feeling that it became much harder to get even basic "+2% k". I know that feelings are a wrong thing to base theories on when things are related to statistics because human brain doesn't work with them correctly, so leaving it as just a guess.

Wait till you get to nerfed Gamma. It had 50B hp some time ago which was increased to 500T in one of the patches (that's x10000). I thought it was a crazy increase but I am actually farming Pi with 1.28T attack already and soon will be ready to farm Gamma again (I am thinking of trying it with about 3T attack). A little slower than before (~100 hits for a kill instead of 10) for a while, but eventually it should be fine and even at 10x time it is worth it.

[Asharai]

You don't really need regeneration anyway. I think +300 one was on Alpha or Beta. I had several + 100% k at Kappa too but nothing like that recently (I suspect it was a bug that they fixed).
I guess people were reaching end game content too quickly so they nerfed a lot of stuff.
The change on Gamma was insane: i went from killing it in 2-hits to something that would take like 3 hours to destroy.

I don't know how they expect us to do Straight Line Challenge now. I have +127K k and +44K % k but I could only beat the first 2 levels of it so far. And with that nerf of +x % k it would take "forever" to get k at that level from start now.

[archmag]

Originally posted by Asharai:

I don't know how they expect us to do Straight Line Challenge now. I have +127K k and +44K % k but I could only beat the first 2 levels of it so far. And with that nerf of +x % k it would take "forever" to get k at that level from start now.

You don't have to complete challenges as soon as you get them. It should be easier to complete the challenge when you can farm Gamma again as it will increase z and also power up z-reactor which both give bonus to Δr. There is a potential 50% increase to k in daily reward (S menu), completing Flower challenge 5 times lets you get final P upgrade to level 10 for extra k increase. You also get both Δr and Δz increases from T prestige. With ability to farm "+2% k" in Kappa and "+40 k" in Beta I guess these are all the sources for income in Straight Line challenge.

There are also a lot of missing mechanics in this game yet. Starting from Tornado prestige 16 they were giving nothing as extra reward (except for usual increase in multipliers) and saying "Please wait for an update!". I am now at T25, getting ready for T26 so that's 10 prestiges of missing bonuses.

[Dassan]

There was a K+200% in kappa before the last patch, maybe on mistake. I grinded it good.

[archmag]

Originally posted by Dassan:

There was a K+200% in kappa before the last patch, maybe on mistake. I grinded it good.

Yeah, seeing that Asharai has 44K% I believe it now. I must have missed it as I only had +9% when I was farming it. I have only +4.95K% total.

There are 10 enemies in Kappa so speed of farming it is roughly 0.1% per second (10 enemies, 2 seconds each, 2% max rare drop), which results in almost 3 hours for 1000%. Not worth farming yet when I can farm Pi for 400 base attack per second.

Also overall k bonus is not that useful except for Slow Spiral and Straight Line Challenges and both of those don't have very good rewards.

Last level in Slow Spiral will give me 2.7x increase in income for my current highest ω prestige, three remaining levels in Straight Line will double my k (+500% instead of +200%, so x6 instead of x3) which will result in just 1.02x increase in income for normal runs.

[Zairev]

So basicly, ya all farmed important stuff before it got removed.
I got only some regen (4k base, 7k total) but thats useles when i get 1T HP deleted after accidently fighting napier. And +1hp regen in training now... thats not gonna help me at all.

As for K, i have 140k % and 80k k from that time, when i found that, but even tho i cant even touch first straight line challenge (i am at T 19). And you cant expect me to farm another 500k% by +2% at kappa just to be able to do first level of that challenge.

I got to gamma and napier when they were already super strong, so i cant even dent them, and because i cant kill gamma even once, my z sucks a lot, therefore i cant boost my stuff in z reactor and get to high numbers (to offset some of the nerfed values) like ya guys did. I am at 10B ATK atm, and only way to farm effectively even Pi is only by super crits from DLC (13% for x30 dmg). Cant even imagine if i had to do it without it.

But still, when there are some rare drops, i would expect them to be at least better then common ones, but most of the time, the rare drop is like 1% amount of a common one. The only difference is that there are few bonuses locked behind rare chance.

[Zairev]

By the way, how did you even got to 1,5T ATK?
You got it by farming +9% Alpha and 400 ATK Beta, or was there some other bonus that i missed which already got deleted? Cause i am at around 10B attack and i was focusing farming ATK most of the time, but micromanaging it for hours is not fun anymore, since i dont feel any progress at all.

[archmag]

Originally posted by Zairev:

So basicly, ya all farmed important stuff before it got removed.
I got only some regen (4k base, 7k total) but thats useles when i get 1T HP deleted after accidently fighting napier. And +1hp regen in training now... thats not gonna help me at all.

It doesn't matter at all. Regen is useless. I have 1B HP with about 10% HP bar filled and no enemies damage me past it. As long as you have just 1 HP to initiate a battle you are fine.

As for K, i have 140k % and 80k k from that time, when i found that, but even tho i cant even touch first straight line challenge (i am at T 19). And you cant expect me to farm another 500k% by +2% at kappa just to be able to do first level of that challenge.

Hmm, you should be able to complete at least two levels of straight line with those stats. Although maybe I underestimate how useful z and z-reactor upgrades are for me.

I am at 10B ATK atm, and only way to farm effectively even Pi is only by super crits from DLC (13% for x30 dmg). Cant even imagine if i had to do it without it.

I started farming Pi after getting to 10B ATK, without super crits. It has 4k atk normal drops and is very short. So initially I would reset until 4k attack is in the first or second slot. Get them, then reset again until new one appears. 10 or even 20 hits for 4k attack is better than 20 hits for 400 attack in Beta, but it can't be automated yet. Somewhere around 30B I started leaving it for 2-3 runs before resetting. Now I can leave it for 100 levels before I need to reset (~10-15 minutes).

Originally posted by Zairev:

By the way, how did you even got to 1,5T ATK?
You got it by farming +9% Alpha and 400 ATK Beta, or was there some other bonus that i missed which already got deleted? Cause i am at around 10B attack and i was focusing farming ATK most of the time, but micromanaging it for hours is not fun anymore, since i dont feel any progress at all.

Well, I have +318% from z-reactor, +60% from Gluttony challenge, +400% from spiral equation (which has 72k% boosted speed from z-reactor). Almost all attack related upgrades are done (you get a ton of exp in Pi) and I've been farming Pi for few days already. Didn't touch extra upgrade levels upgrade yet so there is still some potential there. Before Pi I also did +9% Atk in Alpha and +400 Atk in Beta farms.

[Zairev]

Originally posted by archmag:

It doesn't matter at all. Regen is useless. I have 1B HP with about 10% HP bar filled and no enemies damage me past it. As long as you have just 1 HP to initiate a battle you are fine.

Yea i know, i dont really need regen to progress, its more of an OCD thing. I just wanted to work on something different for a while, because i am stuck at farming same thing over and over again without any real progress that i could "feel".

Originally posted by archmag:

I started farming Pi after getting to 10B ATK, without super crits. It has 4k atk normal drops and is very short. So initially I would reset until 4k attack is in the first or second slot. Get them, then reset again until new one appears. 10 or even 20 hits for 4k attack is better than 20 hits for 400 attack in Beta, but it can't be automated yet. Somewhere around 30B I started leaving it for 2-3 runs before resetting. Now I can leave it for 100 levels before I need to reset (~10-15 minutes).

Yea, thats kinda where i am, but ATK drop from Pi increase my atk like 0.01B, which is quite far from reaching 1500B.

Originally posted by archmag:

Well, I have +318% from z-reactor, +60% from Gluttony challenge, +400% from spiral equation (which has 72k% boosted speed from z-reactor). Almost all attack related upgrades are done (you get a ton of exp in Pi) and I've been farming Pi for few days already. Didn't touch extra upgrade levels upgrade yet so there is still some potential there. Before Pi I also did +9% Atk in Alpha and +400 Atk in Beta farms.

Ah, so this is it. It comes down to z bonuses. My equation is at 130% with like 7% bonus speed from z, and 40% battle stats from z reactor itself. Also, since i never killed gamma, i dont have attack speed equation unlocked either. My delta z is around 400, and most of it came from Tornado bonus of 11K%, not gamma kill. One gamma kill could basicly double my delta z, so if people were farming it continuously before nerf, it make sense that reactor and equation related stuff is super boosted. Not even counting active delta r bonus for straight line challenge.

[archmag]

Originally posted by Zairev:

Yea, thats kinda where i am, but ATK drop from Pi increase my atk like 0.01B, which is quite far from reaching 1500B.

Pi also drops a lot of EXP after you are able to farm it with 30B+ Atk. I have U2 maxed at 101/101, U6 at 11/11, U19 at 21/21 and U15 at 57/101. Those also contribute to attack gains. So you can still stick to farming Alpha for a day or two and then switch to Pi. Farming Beta is worse long-term because you will focus on farming base Attack in Pi anyway so it may be better to focus on % Attack now.

Also, since i never killed gamma, i dont have attack speed equation unlocked either.

Don't worry about that equation. It's bad. I have 2.292% bonus speed from level 195 in it. It's very small boost.

My delta z is around 400, and most of it came from Tornado bonus of 11K%, not gamma kill. One gamma kill could basicly double my delta z, so if people were farming it continuously before nerf, it make sense that reactor and equation related stuff is super boosted. Not even counting active delta r bonus for straight line challenge.

I have 123.9*226.44+99.6 for 3.43M total delta z after applying T25 tornado bonus of 12.1K%. It did boost reactor and equation significantly.

But it seems like the difference in Attack is "only" 2x from equation (5/2.3) and 3x from reactor (4.18/1.4) for a total of 6x. You have DLC crit, you said it gives you 13% chance for 30x damage, meaning it is equivalent to 4.77x DPS (except it is not flat increase so can't be relied on to one-shot farm), so basically thanks to that crit you are very close to where I was with gamma's farming help DPS wise. Just keep farming Atk and Exp and eventually you will progress even though it doesn't feel like you are moving forward now. I was at 1.28T this morning, now I have 1.87T without being able to refresh Pi as often as I want to. Basically the difference is there because I played more and am slightly ahead of you (maybe 2 days worth), and not because of the Gamma farm advantage of which is negated by your DLC boost.

I wonder what that DLC crit is. Is it a Spiral Design? If so then you may be losing on 50% Ω which is rewarded by π design and I think is preferable to simple 5x DPS boost. Although I am not actually sure about this and luckily don't have this choice. I think I would use omega boost for long afk sessions and use dps boost for micromanaged fights.

I think you can safely afk-farm Pi now up to level 22 relying on your crit. Make sure you have 200k defense to not die before that level. When crit triggers it will one-shot enemies so on average you spend less than 10 attack on each enemy which means farming 4k atk will be more efficient than farming 400 atk in Beta. After reaching 50B or more it will be better to switch to few early levels instead and maybe switch crit design to something better as it is useful only on high HP targets and becomes useless when you can one-shot enemies even without a crit.

[Zairev]

Pi gives around 110 EXP, and with 10B ATK, its around 50 attacks for 110EXP, with supercrit (its active design, therefore i cant use +ATK one) lets say its 45 attacks per 110EXP. I can get triple of that EXP/s when i roll bonus EXP in lower tier enemy. Bonus crit is basicly only reason i am able to somehow farm Pi, but relying on crits is anything but consistent.

As for attack speed, you get some from gamma kills too, not only from equation. My total attack speed is around 3%, and its basicly the only thing i spend exp on.

The only good thing rn for me is that super crit dmg is scaling with normal crit dmg (at x34 dmg atm), so thats kinda light at the end of tunnel for when i decide to go for gamma (its usefull against strong enemy, but kinda useless for one-shot farm because of its randomness). As for delta z... yea, Pi design would be the one i would be using if i didnt had to rely on super crits.

Thanks for replies, it was interesting to know where other people stand.
Btw, you gotta admit, that these rare drops need lot of works, because i still fail to see, why rare drop of 0.1% would be 100x weaker then common drop right next to it.

[Zairev]

Oh, i found out the difference in battle stats. Its the fact, that exp purchases of same stuff but different values are not additive, but multiplicative (for ex +1% ATK and +5% ATK is not 6%)

They each multiply the base on their own, so i just got bunch of the pricier ones and doubled my ATK in like hour or so :f

[archmag]

Originally posted by Zairev:

Pi gives around 110 EXP, and with 10B ATK, its around 50 attacks for 110EXP, with supercrit (its active design, therefore i cant use +ATK one) lets say its 45 attacks per 110EXP. I can get triple of that EXP/s when i roll bonus EXP in lower tier enemy. Bonus crit is basicly only reason i am able to somehow farm Pi, but relying on crits is anything but consistent.

Nah, you farm Pi for Atk, not for Exp when you can't one-shot it yet. Atk gains are better in Pi now than in other enemies for you. And with your crits you can go through Pi on auto until at least level 22 (300B hp) relying on one-shots when 13% chance for crit triggers. That's less than 10 hits per enemy, so roughly 50 hits per 4k atk (80 atk per hit). When one-shoting Beta you only get 400 atk per 20 hits (20 atk per hit), so Pi is 4x times better for farming Atk now than Beta. Anyway, that's what I would farm if I was in your position.

There is an Atk+ design? I only have 5 initial simple ones and 3 from achievements. Decided not to buy any that I don't know anything about. Atk+ design should be better when you get closer to one-shotting Pi even if resulting total DPS suffer.

As for attack speed, you get some from gamma kills too, not only from equation. My total attack speed is around 3%, and its basicly the only thing i spend exp on.

I didn't see any attack speed on gamma. There is some in upgrades and I am working on them now, but they cost too much for what they give so I focused on experience, then on attack upgrades, and currently on crits and speed together. I have 7.61% speed displayed on main screen but I don't think effects from Spiral Equation are applied yet as they are applied only on battle screen and there is no speed there. I wish Period for attack, not Speed, but actual time between attacks was displayed on battle screen including all bonuses to speed. Also for enemies. It is an important stat which needs to be considered when calculating DPS or survivability so it is weird we don't have any info about it.

Thanks for replies, it was interesting to know where other people stand.
Btw, you gotta admit, that these rare drops need lot of works, because i still fail to see, why rare drop of 0.1% would be 100x weaker then common drop right next to it.

Hmm. Which ones? I don't remember any such drops on the same enemy, but I mostly focus on one rare that I want and ignore the rest so maybe didn't notice. I do think that there should be a way to see all possible drops for enemies as clicking without knowing what exactly can drop after patch changed drop tables is annoying. Luckily Pi and Gamma have good drops as normal ones so the time to click until rares is in the past (at least for now, as there are rare super crits in Napier but I am not that close to farming it yet).

[archmag]

Originally posted by Zairev:

Oh, i found out the difference in battle stats. Its the fact, that exp purchases of same stuff but different values are not additive, but multiplicative (for ex +1% ATK and +5% ATK is not 6%)

They each multiply the base on their own, so i just got bunch of the pricier ones and doubled my ATK in like hour or so :f

Ha, it's nice when you can still find such things to exploit and get a good boost. I can only slowly farm through Pi now. I don't even expect a good boost after I reach Gamma again as I already have a lot from it.

Attack is currently at 2.27T so I almost doubled it since this morning 10 hours ago.