This game is not a "city builder"

[Riven Z]

I have played the demo and I can already see what will happen when the game will be released: people will look at screenshots and will think that this is a Anno-style city builder. But if they buy it, they will see that buildings have no cost and can't be rotated, resources are not stored or physically moved between buildings. People will see all this and just refund the game in frustration.

I get that the point of the game is to pack as many buildings in limited space as possible while following specific constrains. Basically, the game is just a pretty packing puzzle. Which isn't bad in itself, but this is NOT what people expect from a "city builder" and i suspect this will be the biggest obstacle the game will face.

If you don't believe me, just look at other topics on this forum. They all ask the same things: buildings rotation, bigger ranges and ways to expand the buildable area. Basically, they all like pretty graphics, but reject the game's core mechanics.

[Christosius]

Originally posted by Riven Z:

I have played the demo and I can already see what will happen when the game will be released: people will look at screenshots and will think that this is a Anno-style city builder. But if they buy it, they will see that buildings have no cost and can't be rotated, resources are not stored or physically moved between buildings. People will see all this and just refund the game in frustration.

I get that the point of the game is to pack as many buildings in limited space as possible while following specific constrains. Basically, the game is just a pretty packing puzzle. Which isn't bad in itself, but this is NOT what people expect from a "city builder" and i suspect this will be the biggest obstacle the game will face.

If you don't believe me, just look at other topics on this forum. They all ask the same things: buildings rotation, bigger ranges and ways to expand the buildable area. Basically, they all like pretty graphics, but reject the game's core mechanics.

Pretty much my thoughts.
Not a city-builder. Noticed that packing everything in the possible smallest space is not my way of building a city. So I got frustrated pretty early on cause everything was always out of range and didn't understand what I was doing wrong.

[Doing My Best]

Originally posted by Christosius:

Originally posted by Riven Z:

I have played the demo and I can already see what will happen when the game will be released: people will look at screenshots and will think that this is a Anno-style city builder. But if they buy it, they will see that buildings have no cost and can't be rotated, resources are not stored or physically moved between buildings. People will see all this and just refund the game in frustration.

I get that the point of the game is to pack as many buildings in limited space as possible while following specific constrains. Basically, the game is just a pretty packing puzzle. Which isn't bad in itself, but this is NOT what people expect from a "city builder" and i suspect this will be the biggest obstacle the game will face.

If you don't believe me, just look at other topics on this forum. They all ask the same things: buildings rotation, bigger ranges and ways to expand the buildable area. Basically, they all like pretty graphics, but reject the game's core mechanics.

Pretty much my thoughts.
Not a city-builder. Noticed that packing everything in the possible smallest space is not my way of building a city. So I got frustrated pretty early on cause everything was always out of range and didn't understand what I was doing wrong.

You don't have to pack things in. I came from anno so I sort of knew the deal with the production lines, but they make it pretty easy to figure out distances with the green area effect when you're placing a building down. Also, later in the demo you learn to make warehouses which increase ur range to infinite range with 1 product. You can also demolish and rebuild for free (in the demo) which helps with learning.

Keep in mind that this is your first time doing it. Your second run you'll have a better idea of how to set up your neighborhoods and know how to handle ranges. The first time playing anno can definitely be rough and messy. Same with this game.

[SketchyGalore]

I don't want to agree, but I suppose I do to some extent. To me, the game feels like it will focus on a tighter version of those logistics puzzles in Anno, and focus more on situational planning than sandbox city building. And personally, I REALLY prefer interesting puzzles over sandbox city building! But, I think that I might be in the minority there, and I would worry about people judging the book by its cover. Hopefully it works out, though, since I think it does a great job at what it's trying to do so far.

[Maciek]

I just wanna quickly tune in to thank you for this very interesting discussion, we've been following it from the start :)

I don't want to convince you one way or the other, as there are no strictly defined borders between genres, and if you feel a certain way towards our game, you have every right to do so :)

To give you some additional context: when developing your town further than it is possible in the demo, expanding to the next and next regions, more often than not you end up using Warehouses and long-distance transportation quite a lot. Usually, you will have designated "chunks" doing some particular work (like a big area with a lot of farms, sending barley to mills in their range, and tsampa being stored in a Warehouse, from which it is transported to 4 different marketplaces all over the mountain). Some regions you use only for producing certain goods (that make sense to produce in any given zone), some are only used for residential areas, and some are a mixture of both. Usually, you end up with quite a complex transport network expanding over many regions. It definitely feels somewhat puzzly to some extent, but rather whole mountain-wise, not a single region-wise :) Or, maybe even thinking of it as two layers of puzzles makes more sense.

Also, there are features like changing roads' pavement to increase building ranges/speed up carriers and upgrading carriers to boost their transporting capacity, which allow you to scale up your town and remain efficient. Sometimes relying on short ranges and producing locally is a way to go, but sometimes it really makes more sense to use Warehouses and send resources to different regions - making the call when to use one, and when to use the other is part of the fun/challenge :)

Ok, enough of me rumbling - we will do our best to have enough materials from the full game out there for you to make an informed decision if Laysara is a type of game you will enjoy :)

[bridgeofblues]

Originally posted by SketchyGalore:

I don't want to agree, but I suppose I do to some extent. To me, the game feels like it will focus on a tighter version of those logistics puzzles in Anno, and focus more on situational planning than sandbox city building. And personally, I REALLY prefer interesting puzzles over sandbox city building! But, I think that I might be in the minority there, and I would worry about people judging the book by its cover. Hopefully it works out, though, since I think it does a great job at what it's trying to do so far.

Sam booo

[Saadiya]

OP is basing complaint on a demo... there's different types of city builders too. Anno style city builders aren't the same as the oldschool Ceasar/Pharoah/Zeus - I played them all and was a beta tester for Zeus. and the Children of the Nile games.

Maybe the devs will have two modes, the sandbox style like the demo, and the micromanagement style with currencies and stuff; only the devs know!

[jaymo76]

Out of curiosity can the demo by played on steam deck? I’m assuming “no” but havent seen it posted anywhere.

[R2zi3l]

I didnt like the same things myself about this game but I thought the ability to rotate buildings and some of the other things mentioned in the original post will be added to the game in the EA period.

[Kaisha]

I didn't play much of the demo... but I agree with the OP. Didn't feel like a city builder at all. Most of it just felt like micromanaging silly stuff. I'd have refunded the game pretty quick had I purchased it as well. It's definitely not for me.

It definitely feels like a more casual/clicker/puzzle game than anything.

[Vanakalion]

Similar to Frostpunk, etc., Laysara is an economic simulation that can be categorized as a city builder with survival elements. Due to the fact that you hold the reins of a Himalayan society in your hands, the straightforward economic cycles are self-explanatory. This is not a game that is suitable as an experimental sandbox.

What is initially irritating is the lack of quarrying and forestry, which is the basis for building construction, as is usually the case with city builders. The caste system, which divides the population into several groups that are dependent on each other, is also unusual. The focus differs from that of conventional city builders.

The prophets of doom here have not understood the game.

The challenge is to make the best economic use of the limited space available. This requires well-organized logistics, which is a hairy business that should not be underestimated. You are forced to plan ahead right from the start of the game. Any misstep will quickly land you out of the game. As if that wasn't enough, you're also under time pressure...the next avalanche is coming soon.

To call this hard-hitting brain teaser a casual game is evidence of a pathetic mental horizon.

[postblix]

- Pharaoh is a city builder game. People not going from their house to the production facility is the same as you not going to the iPhone factory in china to pick up an iPhone. Does your neighbourhood not have markets to buy products from? Do the eggs, meat and bread creators not ship their wares to stores who are open all day and conduct commerce with the populace? Warehouses shoving items across the map is something Nebuchadnezzar does nicely with Caravans.
- Any game where the objective is tied to placing functional buildings in a socio-economic pattern is a city builder in one way or another.
- What's Laysara's worth as a city builder currently is up to the challenges that will be implemented by the devs.
- What's the game's worth in the demo? it looks good (and requires a strong computer for it), it has decent economy and resources (albeit very chained together) and has a scrappy UI.
- The bad sides are to each their own, including missing the genre-elements some players look for.

My list of things this game would need to improve includes the following:
- UI should be prettier and ditch the symbol icons in favor of resource renders and raster vignettes.
- UI should be less aggressive with the messaging and put the warning signs in panels.
- Risks and cost. The demo felt way too accomodating which is why the impression of a map painting "game". How did the people survive up there?
- Buildings should rotate. If the point is to pack them up as neatly as possible it feels very difficult doing that when a 4x2 won't turn into a 2x4.
- Destroying the landscape felt very gratuitous. Giant boulder beneath the building area? No problem.
- Logistics chain could stand a boost: everything's getting built so easily with houses made of rock and wood displacing boulders and forests in the blink of an eye while the citizenry then whine about small things like toilet paper and cultery. Feels like the first layer could make due with more resource harvesting which would limit the space more and *make* me build houses higher instead of shoving everything at the base layer except for niche buildings.
- Get the sense of a bustling city: have people and yaks move about, make city squares and general aesthetics.
- if it could run on a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it would be a plus. I'm having a hard time justifying the existing gameplay feature-set requiring such hefty graphics. the avalanche and the weather FX were nice/pretty but if they don't affect the city in some way (having the houses require more wood/coals or something) then they just feel like added shine.

To each their own and good job overall to the devs for the really well made product. Demoed some other game tonight that took me out of it in 5 minutes flat. Would've played Laysara more if not for the weak laptop it ran on.

[Pico 22]

I only thought about Anno as a city builder before I got it; now i think about it as an empire building game where you, among other things, also build cities. Similar with Soviet Republic, where your basic concern is how to optimize industry and only then how to build cities to get it running. Banished is a survival game with a city (instead of an individual) as its central hero. And so on.

And yet all of them are considered to be city builders; even Dorfromantik is sometimes classified as such. Laysara is obviously part of this bunch but if you consider yourself to be a purist, SimCity and C:S are the only way to go.

[Dudepool]

Originally posted by Reverend Belial:

A game where you can build a city whose only restrictions are either imagination, or a more reasonable/realistic line of logistics than a postage stamp's worth of serviceable area.

Does that mean that real settlements that had to be built on real mountains with space and slope challenges aren't real "cities"?

[Dudepool]

I fall on the side of "it's a city builder". The fact that it has constraints to work under, like real cities have, doesn't change the fact that you are building a city.

[μ 'n' I]

Usually, when your only restrictions are your imagination in creating a city, like a modded CS with infinite money, procedural objects and a lot of detailing, it's called a 'city painter' rather than just a city builder, AFAIK. Building cities IRL obviously is restricted in many ways, and a game genre always comes with abstractions and restrictions.