Main units too weak ?

[GepGep]

I just finish the game and I found it awesome.
The fact that critical hit don't exists and that flank and backstab make a huge difference mean that positionning is the key to winning a fight and that feel great and rewarding.

However my main complain with this game is the feel I got from the 3 main characters. Illyana was Ok tier, but Marcus and Slyker were really weak.
It's probably because with permadeath disabled, you only fear loosing one of those three so they stay behind, don't take risk, don't get to deal killing blow, get low xp, fall behind on level, get weaker and the cycle get worse. In my game, Slyker was the last of my roster to get his second promotion ! the main character !
I quiclky got to a point where if I could I would not have taken any of those three into battle, and that is just sad. From a player point of view, you want to get attached to the main characters, and for that they need to be usefull on the battleground, but for me they more look like the 3 cowards of the bunch that jump on isolated low life ennemy to get a few xp point and not die in two hit next time they get a bit too close to the frontline.

I feel like they deserve an up in stats growth, they should be our top 3 units.

[Sigismund's Wrath]

The 3 mains have the highest growths in the game, and have access to really great classes. Illyana is my team MVP in both runs, and I've heard a lot of people steamroll endgame with Warlord Marcus. Skyler is here, too...

Originally posted by GepGep:

It's probably because with permadeath disabled, you only fear loosing one of those three so they stay behind, don't take risk, don't get to deal killing blow, get low xp, fall behind on level, get weaker and the cycle get worse.

I think this is the main point. I haven't played with permadeath off yet, but I think I understand your point that without permadeath, then the defeat condition of losing them makes you more risk-averse. That danger is still there with permadeath enabled, but when my mains die, the chapter restarts, and I've lost nothing but time. When a rando dies, I continue without that strong unit and their gear, so the loss hurts more. Between that, and making sure they get plenty of kills (okay, my Skyler is still under leveled...but Illyana is consistently 5+ levels ahead of the rest of the squad), the 3 are the main contributors to combat in my runs.

There's a few posts on here about people doing main 3 only, or 3 plus healer runs on Veteran, so they're not underpowered as units:) If they're not your top units, maybe it's just how that run ended up for you.

[Balavaeros]

i also just finished the game and also found it awesome. i had no probblems at all with slyker and especially illyana she was my strongest character, it was always marcus getting killed for me. i agree with your points. it doesnt feel right having so much risk associated with your heroes... especially 3 of them that you have to use every battle. the dev mentioned in another thread he's considering removing the character associated loss conditions while permadeath is off, which to me is an excellent solution.

[Leninade]

Illyana is generally regarded as one of the strongest characters in the game. High speed and skill growths along with her ability means she can hit like a truck late game.

Marcus can be trained into Warlord, which is its own self-feeding healing/damage dealer. He requires some babying to get him to be self sufficient, but is pretty usable compared to most other axe wielders.

Slyker is in a bit more of an awkward spot. Defensive and lance based units don’t generally have great promotions, so if you are going in blind, you’ll probably make him a lancer/marshal because that’s what makes sense. These promotions aren’t necessarily bad, but they’re not as good as other options. The game also feels like the bulk of it was balanced more around the midgame, so late game you’ll notice features aren’t as powerful, or growths that are missing.

Most of this can be corrected on a subsequent playthrough (namely through growth items) but there are definitely more traps than one would expect when building a unit in this game.

[Balavaeros]

i found slyker pretty solid, definitely one of my better units overall
nowhere near illyana but i could take risks with him and feel pretty comfortable he would come out of it alive

[BennyT8]

If you're playing on random growth, there is an element of luck involved. My first run Marcus seemed to be getting only one or two attributes levelling up over and over again. Even half way through he was missing so much that I was effectively playing with one less character each level.

But overall, they're three of only five characters who average more than 3 points at each level up (the others being the broken Finn and the returning Wesley, who's only available for half a dozen chapters). The difference isn't much - a couple of points every 10 levels - but it is there. It sounds like you were just unlucky to have two of your three bad and the other only "okay".

And as you've pointed out, your playstyle made things even harder. It doesn't matter how high their growth rate if they never level up because they're hanging back too much. Oddly, my reaction to permadeath is the opposite of yours. I worry about losing too many characters and making the later missions impossible. I'm happy to throw my core three forward because I know that if they die I'll have to replay the level and won't leave my squad short later on.

Incidentally, they may want to try the solution Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon had to that problem. If you had two few characters at certain points you would end up on an extra map that would gift you a replacement.

[Raymond]

Marcus started out as an axe guy. That fact alone make him some of the weakest unit in the game. Slyker is okish, he isn't a deadweight to the team unlike Marcus.

I think the problem lies in the fact that AGI is the only stat in the game that can influence a character's survivability and dps at the same time, all while very few ways for other unit types to handle high AGI units. That's why Illyana and other skirmishing units are so overpowered.

[Sigismund's Wrath]

Originally posted by BennyT8:

Incidentally, they may want to try the solution Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon had to that problem. If you had two few characters at certain points you would end up on an extra map that would gift you a replacement.

Shadow Dragon was my first ever SRPG, and it sparked an absolute obsession. I played it once on normal, and immediately again on H5 to get the "full experience", and keeping your squad under 15 for the Gaiden chapters was a wild requirement haha

But I agree that the idea of side chapters/objectives/conversations/(any content at all) that not only acknowledges unit death, but requires it would be really solid

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Raymond:

Marcus started out as an axe guy. That fact alone make him some of the weakest unit in the game.

This is just a laughable claim.

[Balavaeros]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Raymond:

Marcus started out as an axe guy. That fact alone make him some of the weakest unit in the game.

This is just a laughable claim.

i dont know that it is, at least not from a newcomer point of view. i found him of very little use. always missing attacks, always getting dogpiled. no defensive capabilities. now that i've finished the game and know more, i'm sure i could make something out of him. but he was a source of frustration for me. when you start a new game and see a fighter with an axe you expect to be able to do frontline things with him. i wouldnt care if he wasnt an essential character.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Balavaeros:

Originally posted by Lampros:

This is just a laughable claim.

i dont know that it is, at least not from a newcomer point of view. i found him of very little use. always missing attacks, always getting dogpiled. no defensive capabilities. now that i've finished the game and know more, i'm sure i could make something out of him. but he was a source of frustration for me. when you start a new game and see a fighter with an axe you expect to be able to do frontline things with him. i wouldnt care if he wasnt an essential character.

That's what I felt in the beginning, too. That's why I proposed earlier that he should have higher Skill growth. But in time I learned otherwise. The hit chance can be compensated with either/both Skill Ring/refinements. And once he becomes Warrior/Warlord, he becomes the strongest character in the game next to only the preposterous Finn.

[Balavaeros]

Originally posted by Lampros:

That's what I felt in the beginning, too. That's why I proposed earlier that he should have higher Skill growth. But in time I learned otherwise. The hit chance can be compensated with either/both Skill Ring/refinements. And once he becomes Warrior/Warlord, he becomes the strongest character in the game next to only the preposterous Finn.

i understand and i agree -now-, but for your first playthrough, which is all that a lot of people are going to do, then Raymond is not really wrong. if he requires meta knowledge to be good then hes not in a great spot for an essential character

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Balavaeros:

Originally posted by Lampros:

That's what I felt in the beginning, too. That's why I proposed earlier that he should have higher Skill growth. But in time I learned otherwise. The hit chance can be compensated with either/both Skill Ring/refinements. And once he becomes Warrior/Warlord, he becomes the strongest character in the game next to only the preposterous Finn.

i understand and i agree -now-, but for your first playthrough, which is all that a lot of people are going to do, then Raymond is not really wrong. if he requires meta knowledge to be good then hes not in a great spot for an essential character

I can see your point to some extent - especially since I am on my fourth run. But the things I mentioned are not exactly rocket science though. The Honed refinement is available very early and can be bought; and the Skill Ring is also given to you very early without any cost or effort! ;)

Edit: Having said that, however, I wouldn't mind if Marcus would gain 10 more Skill growth percent (to make it 50) and lose 10 elsewhere to compensate.

[Lampros]

My impressions of the three main characters on the first few chapters of the first run:

Slyker is awesome; Marcus sucks; and Illyana is hot.

My current impression on my fourth run:

Marcus is awesome; Slyker is mediocre; and Illyana is hot.

[Crediee]

Illyana was probably the best of the 3, especially if you got the strength ring on her early. Slyker and Marcus were... fine? Their stats were mostly all middle of the board (Except for Marcus' skill, which was bad.) Real problem with Slyker was that Commando's were basically the only final route for him because turn refreshes were so powerful. He also basically got stuck to be a finisher/debuff spreader for me. Other fighter's just outclassed Marcus so hard later, despite him having more total stat growth points. I'd pick Sven or even Benjen over Marcus any day

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Crediee:

Illyana was probably the best of the 3, especially if you got the strength ring on her early. Slyker and Marcus were... fine? Their stats were mostly all middle of the board (Except for Marcus' skill, which was bad.) Real problem with Slyker was that Commando's were basically the only final route for him because turn refreshes were so powerful. He also basically got stuck to be a finisher/debuff spreader for me. Other fighter's just outclassed Marcus so hard later, despite him having more total stat growth points. I'd pick Sven or even Benjen over Marcus any day

In terms of raw stats, Illyana may be the best, but Marcus has access to Warlord. I cannot stress enough how much of a game-changer - nay, game-breaker that is. Also, I see the argument for picking Benjen over Marcus, but Sven? No way in a million years.