Veteran run 2. The bandit run

[DK]

To make sure I changed up characters I ran with the crew you start with in training, then all the bandits you get along the way. Ending with Slyker, Marcus, Illy, Phoebe, Abi, Arland, Kae, Cass, Ajax, Sven, Hilda, Quincy, and Cedric. Okay I should maybe just consider the starting roster without long term rangers in the party. I played Veteran, random growth, no permadeath. House rule to try not to double up on classes, and no Mel to see how money feels without her.

Main characters.
Slyker. Ended 34 played polearm heavy for a long time then settled for spear and buckler to see if avoidance tanking would work with lancer debuffs. Not consistently compared to skirmishers, but maybe if I would have invested in the agility ring earlier I would have been better off. First playthrough was Hero Lionheart. I feel like safer play with a polearm early really put in the work. I probably should have stuck it out with the polearm all the way through but wanted diversity as I had a ton of other polearms on the field.

Illy, hit 40 on the last fight as Hunter Blademaster. Got all the weapon types to level A before going back to mains. Ended up behind pace on stilleto and crucible weapons slightly. I went against my better judgement with chasing the weapon skill ups, but she packed a punch. If I would have fully built her greatsword up in the forge she would have needed no assistance with Blade surge on softer targets. Leveled with the strength ring exclusively and was elk wearer. Polearm might actually compete with zweihander on ease for elk procs. Last run she was blade blademaster. I think blade worked great for my first run being a little more face friendly, but if you put priority on Illy to let her skill up, the extra weapons and the hunter mobility feels great on certain maps. Mobility passive works with agile so really lets you pick your targets and angles well. I'd say hunter blademaster is consistently and a better fit. I knew she was going to be a hunter this run when I was reminder that she's the expert tracker.

Marcus. Marcus was War Warlord. Just looking at the art with Marcus with the hammer I knew this was the combination to feel right with the game. I may have put too much effort in having a mix of weapons. If I knew he was going to be my hammer bro I should have just focused on it. I used a good amount of greatsword too, and polearm when it became available. Polearm felt great. My agility was in a place where I could double the defenders but not much else, so precision polearm was perfect for me. Marcus claims my skill ring for the first half of the game until I feel he can handle the natural low hit rate of the warhammer, but the warhammer also gets full forge stat upgrades, I usually only spend the money on damage and not hit. I also swap to the defense ring to keep him sturdy. Marcus also carried the wolf effigy, with warlord tricks (self heal and reset) and good polearm cleave this was able to keep him healthy in most maps. First run Marcus was Hero Warlord for a tankier approach as he was most likely to die of my main characters. He was built with turtle fighter gloves and guardian forge to keep him durable. War Warlord top tier, weather you need to hold your own or bust open a group of elites with crushing blow to fear the rest.

The rest of the training group:
Phoebe: Priest Enlightened. Phoebe was the ambulance, skirmisher and swift boots, endurance enough to hold a steel tower shield to boost her respectable defense. Pheebs got around with a high mobility build. I couldn't decide if I was keeping talos or not so when he went out Phoebe picked up the mobility to run to the other split in the team in an emergency. I wanted priest specifically as I was curious if the self heal from mend passive would work with healing light charges. Great theory, forgot to actually check it. Ced went saint because I couldn't read and thought group prayer also healed himself wich Pheebs already has with base passive, so Enlightened was the way. Having double boots also meant that I could get a heal off and position for cartographer. Pheebs will always be my favorite healer. I like the defensive stats with self heal she makes a great front line. Last run I went crusader paladin. I played pally too defensively and didn't make use of it's offensive nature, so this build felt much better to me.

Cedric: Acolyte Saint. Another part of the reason Talon didn't make it I already had an Acolyte. Cedric ran Mithra's Idol and Dove effigy. Cedric will always be a great evasion tank in a pinch, but had no good way to self heal once he did eat a hit. I think all the traditional healing classes are good but different. Only the crusader line plays differently and Ill get to that more later. Last run Ced was Priest Saint, I like this mix differently to blend support abilties with vital points when you don't need to heal. Also with dove you could get a heal off if in dire need and still be able to push vital points in the same round if needed.

Abigail: Longbowman Sniper. Endurance ring and mountain boots to make sure she could throw out great damage and be a turret. Would have enough hit to utilize arched shot to clean up. Endurance expert mod crucible bow. All fairly standard to what we expect out of Abi. Last run she was Hunter Ranger. Overall I think Hunter Ranger is better. Hunter mobility passive stacks nicely with Abi's standard passive. Ranger means she can take target whatever she wants as the shield is no longer an obstacle. Both have strenghts, I just have a clear preference.

Arland: Sentinel Centurion. I did it. I took the classes we all ignore. I spoon fed Arland early so he didn't fall behind like he did in my last run. He rolled good defense early and by first promotion I could tuck the shield away almost permanently. He picked up a polearm and was first in to weaken up the enemies and let other clean up. Safeguard scales nicely, He ended up at lvl 31 with 35 defense, so safeguard was a 7 defense fortify. That's impactful. Sometimes he was the dedicated cleanser opposed to the priest. Gave him the billhook and fully upgraded at the forge. The only 2nd item to get the budget for accuracy upgrades, so he could poke from 2nd line without being a lancer. Heel hook works regardless of if you can pull them. The pull was also a great set up tactic, sometimes he weakened up mobs, sometimes he pulled them into a better position without having to waste a damage dealers turn for the same option. Centurion on the other hand didn't feel impactful. Rally doesn't scale like Safeguard does. Off of memory I thought it was a selfless aura, a small fortify to adjacent allies opposed to knights self fortify. Which means Strengthen resolve didn't have the uptime I was expecting either. Rally gives decent chunk of exp with no targets available, but Centurion does feel a bit lackluster.

The bandits:

Quincy: Quincy was Hero Marshal and ended up being my Benjen replacement. Ahriman's Idol and tome, and a polearm. Start of the fight might need some assistance as her passive stacks up and she supports herself from there. The ramp is real, she was also given the Hero refinement to offset the Ahriman's Idol. Gave her the polehammer until crucible was available with crushing refinement to be able to handle a chokepoint solo. This worked, it was safe, but it wasn't ben with an axe good, so maybe try again with a greataxe instead, greatsword feels great to cleave the leftovers that survive, but she didn't have access to it. I could have gone lionheart and had greatswords and more defense when surrounded. I just really wanted to push Marshal twice as I thought it was underperforming to other options. Quincy felt more like a stall wall than the solo artist that Ben is, but I think lionheart would have changed that, even though stalling with high defense ramp and stagger kept her very safe regardless of what came up to fight her. The other comparison would have been Finn with Ahrimans and that get's overpowered as well. I will definitely take Quincy for another run. First time running Quincy, no run comparison.

Kaelith: Hero Berzerker. At first I thought I'd go more defensive with Kaelith and try and maximize her passive to get her offensive power. Found out that being hit also means she needs to take damage. So 1 chapter with a tower shield later, we were adjusting the plan. Kae ended up with my vitality ring as I didn't know what else to put there and wasn't going to let a ring rot. Eventually I came to terms that her passive isn't her focal point but a bonus. Get her a great sword and the berserker passive and she has pretty decent avoidance with 1 get out of jail free card in Indomitable. Had I known this was the direction with her I may have changed somethings. I already had a war in Marcus, but for those who don't restrict themselves I think War with a great sword, and maybe raiders axe/rapier for a mobility option would have been better. Hero still not a bad option for the build by any means. This is my first run keeping her off the bench, so little to compare to.

Cassidy: Cassidy was rogue assassin, hard not to make the quiet guy sneaky. His passive stacks nicely with hidden to choose your targets. Great agi makes you forget the low defense and between the base passive and hidden, backstabs are easy to get to forget about the low skill growth. The rest of the stats are then solid. No rings necessary. Cass surprised me I thought he'd be fine early but when groups would be harder to pull apart I was worried that he'd be missing. He stayed strong, though didn't perform to Illy's level. Can't blame him for that, she got spoiled. Not much to say for Cass. First time not benching him so no other runs to compare late game to.

Sven: Raider Berzerker. I know I broke my rule having 2 Zerkers in the run but mistakes were made. In hindsight, Kae should have gone lionheart, but I don't think she would have performed as well. Maybe with Ahriman's lionsheart passive would still give double's. A theory for next run! Sven ran turtle effigy, fighter's gloves, and guarded refinement. Raiding axe, with mace for tank options with a buckler. Sven buddied up with Hilda for flavor and she was holding double drakkar items for a while to set up Sven to raider's axe jump and whatever got feared. Ajax was also supporting with bright feathers on a horn bow to give more target options. Sven is great followup if you have other people to set up his passive otherwise his hit is garbage. So debuffs, clean up or backstabs. Still a great option but still has gimmics to work around. Raiders leaping strike requires 1 handed weapons so I wanted to stick to that build for him as my only raider. 60% agility growth keeps him at decent avoidance with berserker passive also. Don't think indomitable ever came into play with him. Granted he was also had Hilda by his side at all times, healing and granting extra avoidance. The returning block from refinement also kept him safe. Like the build would do again.

Hilda: Crusader Paladin. Time to take what I learned from last run and put it to the test. Hilda was played like the rest of the frontline boys, favoring placement to kill secure when a heal was needed. She was running double Drakkar for flavor, with Finn's Axe. I eventually traded out for double Ethal's (ruining the flavor entirely) but this kept her healthy without using smite charges on herself. My offensive approach did feel better this run with crusaders, but I'm still on the fence with them. The fighting area can get really clogged up so sometimes I'd just like my healers to not want to be on the frontline with him. I think it's a healthy hybrid, but sometimes I felt like I needed to babysit the paladin opposed to the easy of traditional healers.

Ajax: Ajax somehow got the same build as last run. Sorry Ajax we didn't try anything new. Ajax was my 2nd dedicated archer, and Abi needs a specific refinement so Ajax had his choice of unique bows. Horn bow it is, was nice line aoe lets mark things with blinding arrows too. Wanted to put eagle on and see what he was capable of with a double attack, but his skill rating isn't great to he gets my skill ring when marcus is done with it. Usually around the time of recruitment. Nothing fancy, very support natured for a bow boy with bloodlust, I'd like to try and build him for carry oriented next time.

The last spot fluctuated. Talon, Edward, Jorah came around but nothing that really got noticed. Some maps I just loaded up down a person or two.

Outside the party:
No Mel no allowance. Money wasn't as tight as I thought it would be. I didn't buy anything steel this run, and only a couple of iron weapons to branch out for training purposes. I still had people with wood shields at the end of the game. I thought the money would have been more noticable, but it was nice to free myself from SAVE THE KILLS FOR MEL mentality. I'd still like to see gold more option instead of going paycheck to paycheck, but really not a problem.

Unique spears don't feel good though. Quincy was running the bleed spear as an option to have a shield on while stacking her passive. Not bad as she wasn't able to double hit anyway. I know we have shark refinements for double damage to bleeding and healing to bleeding damage, but getting a bleed up takes dedicated setup and doesn't feel worth it. Its hard to say double damage doesn't feel worth it but maybe I'll force myself next run and give myself a real opinion. It just hasn't felt like an approach I see myself going for. Sad that I think the bleed damage itself isn't part of the heal, I think I played with that last time. Maybe I overlooked it. The taunt spear also doesn't turn the enemy on use like a defender taunt. I had this on Phoebe if she didn't need to heal and maybe it was a bad interaction with skirmisher boots, but was sad to see that it wasn't an instant positional change. Glad to see more characters can be strong, Quincy comes to mind for this run especially. Defenders need a little kill budget. If they keep on on exp they feel tanky and thick, but if they fall behind they have a harder time getting spoon fed back up.

If I think of more takeaways I'll add later.

[Sigismund's Wrath]

Originally posted by DK:

Heel hook works regardless of if you can pull them

Is this the intended functionality?

[Lampros]

Originally posted by DK:

To make sure I changed up characters I ran with the crew you start with in training, then all the bandits you get along the way. Ending with Slyker, Marcus, Illy, Phoebe, Abi, Arland, Kae, Cass, Ajax, Sven, Hilda, Quincy, and Cedric. Okay I should maybe just consider the starting roster without long term rangers in the party. I played Veteran, random growth, no permadeath. House rule to try not to double up on classes, and no Mel to see how money feels without her.

Cedric is not a "bandit"! ;)

Originally posted by DK:

Slyker. Ended 34 played polearm heavy for a long time then settled for spear and buckler to see if avoidance tanking would work with lancer debuffs. Not consistently compared to skirmishers, but maybe if I would have invested in the agility ring earlier I would have been better off. First playthrough was Hero Lionheart. I feel like safer play with a polearm early really put in the work. I probably should have stuck it out with the polearm all the way through but wanted diversity as I had a ton of other polearms on the field.

Avoidance tanking with Lancer/Marshal on Slyker didn't work well with me either. He basically ended up being neither a good tank or a good DPS. I think the common Scout/Commando path is the only way to optimize him. As I've said before, neither Soldier nor Fighter really have more than 1 viable alternatives.

Originally posted by DK:

Illy, hit 40 on the last fight as Hunter Blademaster. Got all the weapon types to level A before going back to mains. Ended up behind pace on stilleto and crucible weapons slightly. I went against my better judgement with chasing the weapon skill ups, but she packed a punch. If I would have fully built her greatsword up in the forge she would have needed no assistance with Blade surge on softer targets. Leveled with the strength ring exclusively and was elk wearer. Polearm might actually compete with zweihander on ease for elk procs. Last run she was blade blademaster. I think blade worked great for my first run being a little more face friendly, but if you put priority on Illy to let her skill up, the extra weapons and the hunter mobility feels great on certain maps. Mobility passive works with agile so really lets you pick your targets and angles well. I'd say hunter blademaster is consistently and a better fit. I knew she was going to be a hunter this run when I was reminder that she's the expert tracker.

Interesting you went Hunter/Blademaster. That's the one path into Blademaster that I haven't seen much. May I ask your rationale for choosing that path? And did it work?

Originally posted by DK:

War Warlord top tier, weather you need to hold your own or bust open a group of elites with crushing blow to fear the rest.

Warlord is simply the strongest class in the game.

Originally posted by DK:

Quincy: Quincy was Hero Marshal and ended up being my Benjen replacement. Ahriman's Idol and tome, and a polearm. Start of the fight might need some assistance as her passive stacks up and she supports herself from there. The ramp is real, she was also given the Hero refinement to offset the Ahriman's Idol. Gave her the polehammer until crucible was available with crushing refinement to be able to handle a chokepoint solo. This worked, it was safe, but it wasn't ben with an axe good, so maybe try again with a greataxe instead, greatsword feels great to cleave the leftovers that survive, but she didn't have access to it. I could have gone lionheart and had greatswords and more defense when surrounded. I just really wanted to push Marshal twice as I thought it was underperforming to other options. Quincy felt more like a stall wall than the solo artist that Ben is, but I think lionheart would have changed that, even though stalling with high defense ramp and stagger kept her very safe regardless of what came up to fight her. The other comparison would have been Finn with Ahrimans and that get's overpowered as well. I will definitely take Quincy for another run. First time running Quincy, no run comparison.

Hmm, I am surprised you found Hero useful. What did it give you that you felt Lancer or Scout did not?

Originally posted by DK:

No Mel no allowance. Money wasn't as tight as I thought it would be. I didn't buy anything steel this run, and only a couple of iron weapons to branch out for training purposes. I still had people with wood shields at the end of the game. I thought the money would have been more noticable, but it was nice to free myself from SAVE THE KILLS FOR MEL mentality. I'd still like to see gold more option instead of going paycheck to paycheck, but really not a problem.

Even without the income generation, she's just a good character overall - effective in-game and good to look at! ;) I'd far rather have her than Elias.

Originally posted by DK:

Unique spears don't feel good though.

A lot of the uniques feel worse than the generics due to the lack of slots. That's why I've proposed, a number of times, that all weapons should have at least one open slot for us to customize.

[eturulja]

This was such an awesome read, thank you for doing a fun second run with the less used characters.

So glad to see some Arland love and even better when he went the Sentinel line. You're right that the guard can scale VERY hard in the late game, +7 defense is enough to turn most "kind of tanky" units to defender-lite. I agree the Centurion probably needs some looking at.

Kaelith's passive does make her a bit strange to use. I may take out the "injury" requirement so it works with blocked attacks as well. I tried giving her high VIT growth to make it easier for her to take a few hits now and then, but it still does put her in a lot of risk getting hit even once, so not something that is easy to gamble. The risk/reward ratio is a bit off there.

Agreed with the bleed's taking a little too much setup. There's been some suggestions of a spiked shield that applies it on hit which could be interesting. I like your quincy off-tank build, it's very similar to how I use her in my playthroughs.

Love that you kept the brother/sister combo together throughout maps. That's more of what I had in mind as I was creating the pair, Sven essentially being a berzerk axe wielding dodge tank while his sister tries to keep him safe lol. Glad to see the combo worked out for you.

Originally posted by Sigismund's Wrath:

Originally posted by DK:

Heel hook works regardless of if you can pull them

Is this the intended functionality?

Yep! I think... ;)

[DK]

Yeah Cedric is not a bandit but I guess I found the rationale was he was there to make sure that Kae and Cass didn't get put down so I let him make sure they stayed healthy the whole time.

Heel Hook just made lancer obsolete as you can still poke just no bleed lol'

I feel like lancer debuffs would feel better on a defender. Less about the hit penalty, but the speed for less double attacks.

Well Hero was Quincy premade. The passive was wasted as she was out soloing, even lancer passive would have worked better for her, but that's because she feels a bit defender lite after her pesonal passive stacks so yeah. I almost feel like lancer marshal and sentinel centurion should be swapped as a more offensive defender line without going the healing paladin route, and a defensive soldier line. Of course current scaling doesn't fit soldiers defensive stats, and centurion just needs something different.

As far as lancer avoidance tanks not working I think is due to stats. Slyker and Elias have very rounded stats so they don't have strong defense and mediocre agility. I thought the lancer debuff would be enough to offset the base stats but not enough. Kind of would like the debuff to apply to all enemies in ZoC regardless of target. Would say the same for Marshal also. Would feel more impactful without crossing the line into 2 space basic attacks or extra counter attack ideas that pop in my head.

The idea behind hunter blademaster was due to discord suggestion of maximizing her passive. I knew I wanted hunter as I didn't want a 2nd rogue, and went blade last run. Blademaster was the same as last run so we may see a dedicated archer build next run for her. Might try hornbow strength ring elk effigy and see if she's still got it. It's between her and ajax making it work, but I think the early start on strength scaling is my way to go.

I do agree that scout commando is the most potent soldier without comparison. Which is why I'm trying to avoid it to see what comes from it. Might run lancer as a bleed setup, looking at you Eli, but I don't think anything out there is scary enough to need the double damage against bleeding. Spreading bleeds as a refinement would be interesting though. I do think waiting on brutal difficulty to necessitate these 2 step plans would help. Surprised we don't see a similar approach to a refinement doing extra damage to staggered enemies. Eli's passive makes him my favorite stagger bot, as long as he can do damage with the shield bash through the tower shield defense is the problem though. I would like Elias and Slyker to have more stat differences, they are too similar at the moment and both just tend to support, supportive play.

Eturulja. If you want to put in a request to see any specific character make the roster let me know, I'm happy to take requests. Current plan for next play through would main rangers and attachments.
Slyker, Illy, Marcus, Phoebe, with Doug, Arland, Abi, Elias, Reyson, Rho, Ben, Wesley. Probably Cedric again.

[eturulja]

Originally posted by DK:

Eturulja. If you want to put in a request to see any specific character make the roster let me know, I'm happy to take requests. Current plan for next play through would main rangers and attachments.
Slyker, Illy, Marcus, Phoebe, with Doug, Arland, Abi, Elias, Reyson, Rho, Ben, Wesley. Probably Cedric again.

One thing that I do want to see is Cedric with the END refinement and making him a dodge tank/paladin that hits hard due to high AGL/END. That's one that I've been wanting to try at least, but haven't had time the past couple weeks!

I've also wanted to do a Wesley with maxing HIT as much as possible and going Sniper to see if it's OP since he has insane SKL.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by DK:

As far as lancer avoidance tanks not working I think is due to stats. Slyker and Elias have very rounded stats so they don't have strong defense and mediocre agility. I thought the lancer debuff would be enough to offset the base stats but not enough. Kind of would like the debuff to apply to all enemies in ZoC regardless of target. Would say the same for Marshal also. Would feel more impactful without crossing the line into 2 space basic attacks or extra counter attack ideas that pop in my head.

Absolutely. As you say (and as I note at least in regard to Slyker), both Slyker and Elias have jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none stats. Also, the Lancer debuff requires you to be attacked first, which is frankly unattractive. I also agree with the idea of applying the debuff to all enemies in the ZoC.

Originally posted by DK:

The idea behind hunter blademaster was due to discord suggestion of maximizing her passive. I knew I wanted hunter as I didn't want a 2nd rogue, and went blade last run. Blademaster was the same as last run so we may see a dedicated archer build next run for her. Might try hornbow strength ring elk effigy and see if she's still got it. It's between her and ajax making it work, but I think the early start on strength scaling is my way to go.

Ah, variety and experimentation. I am currently running a group that will include no duplicates at any tier, so I totally understand the inclination.

Originally posted by DK:

Surprised we don't see a similar approach to a refinement doing extra damage to staggered enemies.

Offer as a suggestion!

[DK]

Originally posted by eturulja:

Originally posted by DK:

Eturulja. If you want to put in a request to see any specific character make the roster let me know, I'm happy to take requests. Current plan for next play through would main rangers and attachments.
Slyker, Illy, Marcus, Phoebe, with Doug, Arland, Abi, Elias, Reyson, Rho, Ben, Wesley. Probably Cedric again.

One thing that I do want to see is Cedric with the END refinement and making him a dodge tank/paladin that hits hard due to high AGL/END. That's one that I've been wanting to try at least, but haven't had time the past couple weeks!

I've also wanted to do a Wesley with maxing HIT as much as possible and going Sniper to see if it's OP since he has insane SKL.

Well we are on the same page for this next run. Abi is going scout line to see if she feels fine relying on scout damage opposed to endurance rune. Cedric will be going pally with endurance rune as it's his last build for me and has been on the docket. Had to forgo last run as Hilda took the crusader spot. Rapier crusader incoming (I think rapier still has one slot for endurance) I like to push Sniper as I know the value to commando and ranger feels great to me so I'm hoping I can make Sniper feel good in it's own right. I think I'm looking at 3 dedicated archers (counting Illy going an experimental archer hunter build) and 3 base defenders so, things should be interesting compared to other runs.