MV's game design is DEEPLY flawed at its core and beyond

[Infevo]

Love the game but there is a lot of work to be done before this game can be taken serious. Nintendo didn't want Smash to become competitive. But the player base pushed for it because the system mechanics just make sense. Here on the other hand we have a strong push for competitive gameplay while the game does not even nail the fundamentals. I am not even talking about individual character balance. Many design decisions in MV are highly questionable.

1) Mages/Tanks should not have quick normals. But they are quicker than some assassins.

2) Mage hurtboxes are too small considering how fast Bugs/Tom move and how big their hitboxes are. Either they have to get their movement options reduced because they are faster than most characters or they should have normal hitboxes and slower movement speed. The way these two work are not much different than bruisers and assassins but they have additional advantages that make them so good which is the speed, their screen control, their utility, their hitboxes, their hurtboxes while still having ridiculous combo/setplay potential.
=> Balance 101 (?) - you cannot give a character everything and wonder that people keep asking the same questions on the forums and then leave after not getting answers. What is the reasoning behind Bugs' or T&J's design?

3) There are no repercussions for spamming big damage moves. For example. Why is Shaggy allowed to dragon punch and then immediately spike? I do understand that whiff punishing should not be as easy in a fast paced brawler but right now it all feels super random. Game has to be slowed down in certain aspects or it will end up appealing to pros and casuals exclusively while there is pretty much no incentive for intermediate players to grow. Some of the most frustrating moves to deal with are quick (low startup), have huge 360° hitboxes, deal more damage and knockback while still being safe (low recovery) and no cooldown.

4) Tanks are much harder to ring out (much more ridiculous with defensive perks) than low health characters but still have big moves + armor to keep swinging. On lower and intermediate level of competition they aren't less effective in killing fast as assassins, bruiser and mages. It is beyond me that I manage to juggle Iron Giant successfully after each of my air options with a vertical assassin close to the top screen and he just lives no matter what @150 dmg while I get comboed off the ground with a couple of normal hits and die.

5) The game is not transparent enough about true combos. It feels a lot like the devs have not even expected there were any dealing more than 40 dmg and people keep coming up with zero2death- or 100+dmg-combos. The training mode (lab) does not give enough insight and the display just keeps refreshing the moment your combo breaks and you hit with another move. Everything in that regards feels like a closed first beta now. And the proof of concept seems to still be missing.

6) Everyone keeps repeating this is supposed to be a 2v2 focused game. I don''t see it. 2v2 is pure chaos. Too much is going on on the screen (again, no transparency). Especially when you have 4*T&Js on screen it is a pure mess. There is not only a lack of team mechanics to justify the push for 2v2 but there is also plenty of situations where you actually ruin your team mate's combos, bait them or just force them play around your own game. I also don't see any punishment for "feeding" or "afk". And I think it is super annoying that the winning team is allowed to swap characters and you have to go through the whole selection process for perks TWICE each round. Some stages benefit certain characters and are selected at random. Some stages are too small for 2v2. Too big stages stretch the view so much when the fight is spread across the area that makes everything look tiny on the screen making pixel perfect combos impossible to execute.

7) Characters have too much stamina. Trying to hit some of the faster characters with small hurtboxes is hard enough. But being allowed to spam dodges for so long makes the stamina system neglectable. Introduce a penalty. Every dodge that did not successfully evade an attack should cost more stamina. Same for offensive dodges. If you dodge in the air for juggles but your consecutive attack misses make it cost more stamina. To fix 3) one could also introduce a stamina cost for special moves instead. Why are you allowed to spam dodge anyway without repercussions? Dodge should have RECOVERY so you can bait and punish it, a cooldown or just much higher costs attached. It is just not fun fishing for hits against opponents that spam dodge whenever you come near them. I am not complaining being dodged, so you don't misunderstand. But there is barely any skill involved right now and it is just not fun from a design perspective swinging all day on the ground and missing everything because one dodge follows the next because you can spam it.

8) I miss the transparency on the number of remaining air options. Can't be bothered counting. Just like I don't want be counting dmg and hit fatigue.

9) Move priority is missing in this game. Strong moves have to be lower priority because they are spamable in this game or they have to be prioritized but easily punished on whiff,

10) Arbitrary cooldowns on projectiles (and in general). Some projectiles can be spammed. Others have huge cooldowns. Considering Batarang covers Batman horizontally so well and gives him a free hit confirm while being spamable isn't reasonable to me. Especially since he has so good vertical kill pressure once they jump. And if he hits with Batarang he can follow up on reaction with grappling hook. On top of that it is a combo tool and weakens (debuff). I don't want to focus on Batman but this just shows how inconsistent the concept is in general.

11) Perks are not thought through AT ALL.
=> +% dmg perks don't make ANY mathematical sense. 5% of 20 dmg (no move does that dmg) is 1 additional dmg. They are not worth it. I deal at least the same dmg if I don't use them but go for frost debuffs and ignites instead. Especially frost debuff on projectile hit is super strong as you have a much easier time dealing with faster characters, juggles and finishing your kill combos. Damage reduction makes EVEN LESS sense mathematically (except on tanks).. It reduces damage by 4% which deal 4 to 10 damage. Why would anyone want to waste a slot on this if you can have a triple jump instead (or 3 grey health on projectile hit e.g.)?

12) I think having two systems in place to interrupt combos based on damage received overcomplicates things. We have increased knockback the more damage was dealt already and this is a core mechanic which by itself makes combos break sooner. Why introduce hitstun decay for every attack on top of that? Again, this speaks to the point of lack of transparency. It is just frustrating that you can never reliably commit yourself to a combo after a character already received damage. Dealing with the increased knockback is challenging enough when juggling. I would say that breaking a combo after the same attack is reoccuring for the third time should be fine. Even a "guts" mechanic making characters receive one dmg per hit after a certain point would do. But it's just a pain in the butt having to take two intransparent multiplicatively scaling mechanics into account.

This thread is not supposed to be a crybaby post like most on these forums. Again, I love this game and even supported it with the 100€ founders pack. I want this game to succeed as much as possible and especially appeal to a broad range of players in between casual gamers and pros. But I fail to see the vision of the game designers.

How do they want us to play the game?
What in particular is supposed to make this game interesting and enjoyable?
Where is the depth?
And in what direction is this title going in the future?

[Sayla Massochist]

Keep in mind that Nintendo had decades of experience with Smash. Most of the characters kits were tested over multiple games and its systems refined through trial and error over those games.

Players First Games was founded in 2019 and this is their first major game. They don't have the experience or resources that Nintendo was able to give Smash. They are likely learning about how to properly set up characters and kits and what not on the fly. So far the games director has been very active on Twitter and seems like he really wants to make Multiversus the best game it can be. Give them some time to get better at this. Trying to make a game in a genre that has been dominated by a single company and series for two decades would be tough for even a large, experienced development company.

[ele]

I don't see any of these as problems to be honest. Hit/hurt boxes are getting modded and that's a great step up.

[Omegalisk6900]

5. Smash has less on things that true combo. Some hings in Smash that true combo son't even read as a combo for their combo system reader.
6. We don't have ranked yet. Ranked play will not have repeat characters so there will not be 2 of the same on a ranked team. There also, supposedly, will be stage strikes when ranked drops.
8. The more you play the easier it is to see to count peoples options.
9. Priority isn't necessary. They are doing a huge hit/hurt box overhaul after EVO this weekend with buffs and nerfs to address a lot of things. They just didnt want to make changes before this major event.
11. Damage % perks are made for combo characters.

[Knee]

The frames for almost all smash attacks are wayyy too short, I shouldn’t be able to throw so many shaggy forward smashes for free AND have superarmor on top of that

it seems that way for way more than just smash attacks actually, then high level play becomes a dodging chicken fight wildly swinging until someone does a hard read or makes a mistake

Originally posted by TPX Omegalisk:

5. Smash has less on things that true combo. Some hings in Smash that true combo son't even read as a combo for their combo system reader.

you talking about smash ultimate?

[Acoustic Stoner]

The out of beta Release patch on the 8th to 15th is said to be big.
If it makes many fun and benefiting changes. Then we'll know to come back or not long term.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Acoustic Stoner:

The out of beta Release patch on the 8th to 15th is said to be big.
If it makes many fun and benefiting changes. Then we'll know to come back or not long term.

I'll definitely stick around. It's only that I miss a fundamental vision for this game's concept and I know that people intuitively walk away from games if this vision is missing. If things don't make sense to a game's broad population, people won't approach the title with a certain needed seriousness. They'll casually hop on just to mess around for 20 minutes once in a while for the chuckles. Nothing hurts a competitive game's lifecycle more.

It is super hard to rescue games after release if their design is fundamentally flawed. Some points I listed should have been addressed way before any closed betas.

[Richard Roe]

Yeah I had a match with my buddy against a shaggy player and multiple times during the fight shaggy spammed his power kick move and no mater if I was above or below him swing at him the second my hits touched him "I" took damage not the shaggy

hit priority makes me rage hard in this game (I love the more close quarter scraps ups) so long distance high priory spam dash attacks annoy the absolute hell out of me and quickly drain my will to play after the rematch is over

[Plum]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Love the game but there is a lot of work to be done before this game can be taken serious. Nintendo didn't want Smash to become competitive. But the player base pushed for it because the system mechanics just make sense. Here on the other hand we have a strong push for competitive gameplay while the game does not even nail the fundamentals. I am not even talking about individual character balance. Many design decisions in MV are highly questionable.

1) Mages/Tanks should not have quick normals. But they are quicker than some assassins.
2) Mage hurtboxes are too small considering how fast Bugs/Tom move and how big their hitboxes are.
3) There are no repercussions for spamming big damage moves. For example. Why is Shaggy allowed to dragon punch and then immediately spike? I do understand that whiff punishing should not be as easy in a fast paced brawler but right now it all feels super random. Game has to be slowed down in certain aspects or it will end up appealing to pros and casuals exclusively while there is pretty much no incentive for intermediate players to grow.
4) Tanks are much harder to ring out (much more ridiculus with defensive perks) than low health characters but still have big moves + armor to keep swinging. On lower and intermediate level of competition they aren't less effective in killing fast as assassins, bruiser and mages.
5) The game is not transparent enough about true combos. It feels a lot like the devs have not even expected there were any dealing more than 40 dmg and people keep coming up with zero2death- or 100+dmg-combos. The training mode (lab) does not give enough insight and the display just keeps refreshing the moment your combo breaks and you hit with another move. Everything in that regards feels like a closed first beta now. And the proof of concept is missing.
6) Everyone keeps repeating this is supposed to be a 2v2 focused game. I don''t see it. 2v2 is pure chaos. Too much is going on on the screen (again, no transparency). Especially when you have 4*T&Js on screen it is a pure mess. There is not only a lack of team mechanics to justify the push for 2v2 but there is also plenty of situations where you actually ruin your team mate's combos, bait them or just force them play around your own game. I also don't see any punishment for "feeding" or "afk". And I think it is super annoying that the winning team is allowed to swap characters and you have to go through the whole selection process for perks TWICE each round. Some stages benefit certain characters and are selected at random. Some stages are too small for 2v2. Too big stages stretch the view so much when the fight is spread across the area that makes everything look tiny on the screen making pixel perfect combos impossible to execute.
7) Characters have too much stamina. Trying to hit some of the faster characters with small hurtboxes is hard enough. But being allowed to spam dodges for so long makes the stamina system neglectable. Introduce a penalty. Every dodge that did not successfully evade an attack should cost more stamina. Same for offensive dodges. If you dodge in the air for juggles but your consecutive attack misses make it cost more stamina. To fix 3) one could also introduce a stamina cost for special moves instead.
8) I miss the transparency on the number of remaining air options. Can't be bothered counting. Just like I don't want be counting dmg and hit fatigue.
9) Move priority is missing in this game. Strong moves have to be lower priority because they are spamable in this game or they have to be prioritized but easily punished on whiff,
10) Arbitrary cooldowns on projectiles (and in general). Some projectiles can be spammed. Others have huge cooldowns. Considering Batarang covers Batman horizontally so well and gives him a free hit confirm while being spamable isn't reasonable to me. Especially since he has so good vertical kill pressure once they jump. And if he hits with Batarang he can follow up on reaction with grappling hook. On top of that it is a combo tool. I don't want to focus on Batman but this just shows how inconsistent the concept is in general.
11) Perks are not thought through AT ALL.
=> +% dmg perks don't make ANY mathematical sense. 5% of 20 dmg (no move does that dmg) is 1 additional dmg. They are not worth it. I deal at least the same dmg if I don't use them but go for frost debuffs and ignites instead. Especially frost debuff on projectile hit is super strong as you have a much easier time dealing with faster characters, juggles and finishing your kill combos. Damage reduction makes EVEN LESS sense mathematically.. It reduces damage of by 4% which deal 4 to 10 damage. Why would anyone want to waste a slot on this if you can have a triple jump instead (or 3 grey health on projectile hit e.g.)?

This thread is not supposed to be a crybaby post like most on these forums. Again, I love this game and even supported it with the 100€ founders pack. I want this game to be successful as possible and especially appeal to a broad range of players in between casual gamers and pros.

You disagreeing about how things work does not make your argument valid, I believe "mages" work well, I love the perk system, and I believe all the cooldowns are very valid except in the case of batarangs being too short.

Also the "stamina" system as you call it is sufficient, you may not be using it enough if you find it is not draining.

Go watch EVO for proof of the competitive viability of this game that is in beta,.

[Sayla Massochist]

They do not want this to just play exactly like smash, nor should it. If it is going to become something worth serious competition they have to experiment with new systems and ways to handle the genre. They can't just 100% copy and paste Smash Bros with a new skin.

There is going to be bugs and issues and they are going to have to rework systems and rethink character kits. That is just a fact. If you want to just play Smash on PC so bad then petition Nintendo to make the next Smash Bros multiplatform.

[Cottoneyes]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Nintendo didn't want Smash to become competitive. But the player base pushed for it because the system mechanics just make sense.

Competitive smash as a series took nearly aspect out the game of it to be even close to viable while multiversus came out the gate with what it wanted to be in mind. MV doesnt need years of rule changes and 75% of the game cut for it to have it's own place.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Cottoneyes:

Originally posted by Infevo:

Nintendo didn't want Smash to become competitive. But the player base pushed for it because the system mechanics just make sense.

Competitive smash as a series took nearly aspect out the game of it to be even close to viable while multiversus came out the gate with what it wanted to be in mind. MV doesnt need years of rule changes and 75% of the game cut for it to have it's own place.

MV does not look to me like they had in mind much. I have tried to elaborate on this extensively. I don't mean to sound like a doomer. Just ignoring all the points and adapting a play2win mentality ignoring all the bs in this game may be a viable attitude. Still I worry many won't be able to overlook the obvious flaws at core of the design.

Originally posted by Sayla Massochist:

They do not want this to just play exactly like smash, nor should it. If it is going to become something worth serious competition they have to experiment with new systems and ways to handle the genre. They can't just 100% copy and paste Smash Bros with a new skin.

There is going to be bugs and issues and they are going to have to rework systems and rethink character kits. That is just a fact. If you want to just play Smash on PC so bad then petition Nintendo to make the next Smash Bros multiplatform.

Please don't get me wrong. I just brought up Smash because it is ironic how switched the attitudes of the devs towards their games are. And while Smash always provided a solid base for competitive longevity and Nintendo didn't intend that we have the opposite here with MV. Let's not pretend like MV's design is well thought through. It isn't. Not even close.

[Codester]

I'm not reading all of that Jesus christ. This is a Video game.
Why do people revolve their personality around gaming.
It's a piece of media that provides entertainment when you have some free time. Touch grass and grow up.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Codester:

I'm not reading all of that Jesus christ. This is a Video game.
Why do people revolve their personality around gaming.
It's a piece of media that provides entertainment when you have some free time. Touch grass and grow up.

Don't reply if you don't care. If you only want to casually enjoy the game, then do so and don't consider walking into forums and spam. Your 4 lines of text worse infinitely more useless than each single sentence anyone else wrong here.

Originally posted by Ign- Arxya:

Also the "stamina" system as you call it is sufficient, you may not be using it enough if you find it is not draining.

Go watch EVO for proof of the competitive viability of this game that is in beta,.

I watched a lot of EVO matches and other tournaments. I see players barely fall under 50% stamina. But usually they are topped off and it regenerates too fast to even bother paying attention to stamina.

[Acoustic Stoner]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Acoustic Stoner:

The out of beta Release patch on the 8th to 15th is said to be big.
If it makes many fun and benefiting changes. Then we'll know to come back or not long term.

I'll definitely stick around. It's only that I miss a fundamental vision for this game's concept and I know that people intuitively walk away from games if this vision is missing. If things don't make sense to a game's broad population, people won't approach the title with a certain needed seriousness. They'll casually hop on just to mess around for 20 minutes once in a while for the chuckles. Nothing hurts a competitive game's lifecycle more.

It is super hard to rescue games after release if their design is fundamentally flawed. Some points I listed should have been addressed way before any closed betas.

I understand but most comebacks are thanks to the community.
Rainbow Six siege started out as a literal failure. It was the community constantly playing, as well as making/watching youtube content enough to suggest it to non-community potential viewers.

Right now Fall Guys of all things is having a small comeback and when you look at the steam charts it's wave after wave after wave.

Or the worlds most over-rated game. Fortnite. 4+ years of effort creating a PvE system that was suppose to be Free 2 play only for "the update" to steal a lot of shows. Battle Royal.

Final Fantasy 14 just existing then having a surge of players so great they had to stop selling the game due to a lack of available server space. (Plus the many slow-downs covid caused.)

With as strong a start this had. I honestly think it'll have a good enough chance.
Right now alot is happening in gaming and it's not the usual loud boom.

[Sayla Massochist]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Sayla Massochist:

They do not want this to just play exactly like smash, nor should it. If it is going to become something worth serious competition they have to experiment with new systems and ways to handle the genre. They can't just 100% copy and paste Smash Bros with a new skin.

There is going to be bugs and issues and they are going to have to rework systems and rethink character kits. That is just a fact. If you want to just play Smash on PC so bad then petition Nintendo to make the next Smash Bros multiplatform.

Please don't get me wrong. I just brought up Smash because it is ironic how switched the attitudes of the devs towards their games are. And while Smash always provided a solid base for competitive longevity and Nintendo didn't intend that we have the opposite here with MV. Let's not pretend like MV's design is well thought through. It isn't. Not even close.

I get that. This is also the development studios first game. Nintendo had a decade of experience when they made the first Smash Bros and have had decades to refine the genre. I am probably willing to cut them slack at this point in the games life so long as they make some progress refining it. Hopefully they will take all the feedback they have received and the game improves. The director already confirmed they are redesigning the Hitbox/hurtbox system entirely.