(SPOILER) Trying to settle the Eigong too hard debate

[Nortic]

I think the Eigong fight is the most controversial topic on this forum. Mainly because any debate on game difficulty will inevitably become toxic at some point but I think there is something genuinely interesting to discuss this time.

So on one hand people are arguing that the Eigong fight is way too hard and that it ruins the game for them.
On the other hand people are arguing that the fight is fine as it is and that people who are complaining just aren’t the people the game is targeted at or should just persevere more.
I tend to lean more toward the first category but I don’t think that the people that think the battle is fine as it is are entirely wrong for thinking that way.

First of all, just so we are on the same page, the Eigong fight is demonstrably harder than everything else in the entire game. It has intentionally unintuitive timings, unpredictable patterns and one of the only attacks that can’t be parried with an unbound parry in the entire game.

However people usually don’t realize that you can think a fight is too difficult while still thinking it is well designed. The Eigong fight itself isn’t the problem, it’s how it relates to the game as a whole and its impact on the experience.

This is why I believe that while the Eigong fight is a fun challenge, it’s way too aggressive and ends up hurting the pacing of the game. I think that it would make the game better overall to tone this fight down. And again I’m not saying that this change would make the Eigong fight itself better but that it would reduce the negative impact it has on the game.

I also want to go through a few counter arguments:

This is just a skill issue

No, if a game ends up being a less engaging experience to a lot of people because of a difficulty spike it can be a genuine design flaw. I’m not saying that frustrating design can’t be good design but that in this specific instance the game would be better with an easier fight.
Remember kids, being good at video games doesn’t make you more valuable as a person and telling people who genuinely think a challenge is overtuned to just suck it up isn’t helping anyone.

You could just switch to story mode

Ok this is a fair argument. If you are struggling with a hard part of the game there is absolutely no shame in using this kind of accessibility feature. That’s what they are for and their use should be normalized. However this still feels kind of cheap. I don’t think it’s a perfect solution to leave the task of managing the difficulty curve in the hands of the player. Also personally, I completely forgot story mode was a thing by the time I reached the Eigong fight.

What about people who enjoy being challenged in video games, isn’t their experience valid too ?

Yeah, completely. If you think the difficulty of the Eigong fight on its own is perfect for you this is great. The problem is that it doesn’t live up to the standard that was set up by the rest of the game. If the entire game was harder it wouldn’t be a problem it would just be a game for a different target audience.

In conclusion,

I am writing this post because I want people to stop seeing people that argue that the Eigong fight is too hard as people who are merely complaining that the game is too hard for them and that it hurts their ego. (Though I’m not saying that some people aren’t doing that)
I want people to genuinely question what the difficulty in Nine Sols is for and to have meaningful conversation about it.

Anyway I would love to hear what other people’s experiences with this boss fight are and if they have different opinions on if the difficulty should be adjusted in the end.

[Rebelica]

Well I think we just need more data about how hard Eigong is for most of the players here. for me, it took me about 2-3 hours to practice and I really enjoyed the whole journey. You can really feel the mastery bar is filling, and feel your own heartbeat. That's what a soul-like game should be like!

[superdrocher98]

I believe that it is not worth lowering the difficulty, there are a lot of ways in the game, for example, to knock down her attacks on the entire screen or inflict a lot of damage and at the same time have greater survivability. There are a lot of skills in the skill tree that completely break the balance, which is why you can deal with the boss damn quickly. Most players simply use 1 method of combat, rarely using the second and discarding the others completely. The beauty of the game is its diversity, which many people do not notice. I just don't want this boss to be changed because of the small number of people this boss is difficult for

[john absa]

this fight demands more from you than any other in the game
the difficulty spike combined with lots of broken hitboxes makes it really frustrating to actually play

[sheer.falacy]

I think clearly signposting the difficulty choice for the Eigong fight would be the biggest help here. Getting through phase 1 and 2 by the skin of your teeth and then seeing a phase 3 start can be pretty rough, and that only happens if you make a choice earlier which has no obvious association with the fight. Something like "Are you sure you want to give her extra time to prepare?" would at least be a hint.

The three phase fight is a clear step up in difficulty from the rest of the game, especially if you're still having problems with the first 2 phases since it takes so long to get any practice on phase 3.

I also kind of wish you could skip phase 1 if you did well enough on it, that would also help with iterating. But it's not really a thing the genre does.

[Jensegaense]

To me, Eigong just completely deflated my desire to beat the game. I've put like 28 hours into the game beforehand and enjoyed the entire progress until her, so I definitely feel targeted as an audience for the game, but the spike with her is so insane. I can beat Phase 1 with my eyes closed now, but the stuff I have trouble with is in Phases 2 &3, which become so tedious to get to that I just no longer feel the desire to get to them.
It really sucks because everything up until that point was fantastic to me. Most of the latter bosses took a couple tries but I could feel myself improving with each attempt. I now have 5 hours into Eigong alone and I can't even get to Phase 3 on most attempts, she's just way too overtuned compared to the rest.

[Seisachtheia]

I really feel this type of debate will just always go in circles. As someone who has beaten this boss a number of times across 4 full playthroughs of the game (clearly, this game is my jam) I can say that I went from an 8 hour slog in my first playthrough to beating her easily within a few attempts on subsequent runs. All of her attacks are consistent, with consistent hitboxes, and if you know what you're doing you can easily overcome her with minimal challenges.

There is a story mode, if Eigong is too difficult, use it to make the fight manageable, then on subsequent runs you'll find your skill has improved. Try swapping out your jades...the jades are pretty well balanced in this game to allow for different playstyles; I think too many players are afraid of trying them out because of downsides some jades have to balance them.

Eigong's boss difficulty is both rewarding as a final fight and narratively...as her last quote before the fight says, "No master likes to kill their student...don't make me do it twice." She's powerful, overbearing, and a force of nature in the Solarian world. And the fight makes you feel that fact.

Players who like the narrative set up and the difficulty shouldn't be penalized because other players don't want to explore the options the game has for allowing you to overcome its challenges - either through build changes or through story mode.

[Octarine]

Originally posted by Seisachtheia:

Try swapping out your jades...the jades are pretty well balanced in this game to allow for different playstyles; I think too many players are afraid of trying them out because of downsides some jades have to balance them.

That's EXACTLY the problem with Eigong. The game allowed different playstyles and jades up to this point. I found it somewhat fun to try different jades combinations for previous bosses. However, this boss doesn't allow any variability and forces you into ONE particular playstyle with only ONE viable jade combination.

That's because boss doesn't have any openings to attack her. She spams attacks without rest, there's no posture or balance concept. The only way to deal damage to her is by 1) parry; 2) unbounded counter.

This forces you to use: HEDGEHOG jade to be able to deal at least some damage without attacks (as I said there are no openings) and RECIPROCATION JADE for unbounded counter. That's it. You either master unbounded counter - which was introduced late in the game and was not necessary to deal with bosses - or you don't beat this boss.

You lost your freedom of playstyle at this stage of the game.

[Seisachtheia]

Originally posted by Octarine:

Originally posted by Seisachtheia:

Try swapping out your jades...the jades are pretty well balanced in this game to allow for different playstyles; I think too many players are afraid of trying them out because of downsides some jades have to balance them.

That's EXACTLY the problem with Eigong. The game allowed different playstyles and jades up to this point. I found it somewhat fun to try different jades combinations for previous bosses. However, this boss doesn't allow any variability and forces you into ONE particular playstyle with only ONE viable jade combination.

That's because boss doesn't have any openings to attack her. She spams attacks without rest, there's no posture or balance concept. The only way to deal damage to her is by 1) parry; 2) unbounded counter.

This forces you to use: HEDGEHOG jade to be able to deal at least some damage without attacks (as I said there are no openings) and RECIPROCATION JADE for unbounded counter. That's it. You either master unbounded counter - which was introduced late in the game and was not necessary to deal with bosses - or you don't beat this boss.

You lost your freedom of playstyle at this stage of the game.

I beat this boss once without using unbounded counter and the other 4 times only using unbounded counter on her second phase opening attack (the wind slash style attack). I did not use any parry damaging jades in my victories. You can get a full combo off + bow shot + talisman charge after each "iaido" whirlwhind blade attack. You can fit a single sword slash in between each slash of the basic slash combo (this in fact helps time perfect parries on those slashes) plus punish afterward if do you quickblade + bearing jade setup. The talisman dash leaves her open in the first phase and the talisman + follow up gives you a few openings in the second and third. I've beaten this boss running different jades (quickblade setup, charge attack setup as two mains).

[SERGEANT]

Originally posted by Jensegaense:

To me, Eigong just completely deflated my desire to beat the game. I've put like 28 hours into the game beforehand and enjoyed the entire progress until her, so I definitely feel targeted as an audience for the game, but the spike with her is so insane. I can beat Phase 1 with my eyes closed now, but the stuff I have trouble with is in Phases 2 &3, which become so tedious to get to that I just no longer feel the desire to get to them.
It really sucks because everything up until that point was fantastic to me. Most of the latter bosses took a couple tries but I could feel myself improving with each attempt. I now have 5 hours into Eigong alone and I can't even get to Phase 3 on most attempts, she's just way too overtuned compared to the rest.

If you want to beat the game on normal difficulty, I suggest you copy your save files, then switch to the story mode, set the minimum injury modifier, and practice phases second and third. Then copy your save file back and beat her.

[Sir_Sam_Vimes]

imo it is a good thing that the final boss gating off the good ending is an increase in difficulty from everything else in the game. it is the final test of your skills to prove your mastery

[Rotwall]

It took me a total of roughly 2 hours to beat Eigong, across 2 different sessions. In the first session, I had done everything leading up to the true ending and then put around 30 mins into the fight before calling it. I had thoughts about dropping the game there because it was just such a massive leap in difficulty compared to the other bosses, but I decided to keep trying the next day. After an hour and a half of learning her attacks, trying different jade combinations, and just fighting her over and over again, I eventually did it. It felt great, finally getting that fight over with and seeing the true ending, and it felt even better that I had earned it.

So, imo, Eigong's difficulty makes her fight the perfect, challenging finisher for this generally tough game. All of the other bosses in this game have essentially been preparing you for this final fight, for it acts as the ultimate test of skill and what you have learned while playing. I certainly don't think that she's the best boss though. I actually don't find her fight all that fun despite being challenging, and there's some jank/unfairness in her hitboxes and timings. If the devs do choose to tweak her fight in the future, I hope they make some of her attacks easier to telegraph instead of nerfing her heavily. Had she been an easier fight, beating her would not have been as rewarding.

TLDR; I like her how she is. The devs could fix some of the unfairness present in the fight, but I don't see the need to heavily nerf her.

[Octarine]

IMO the game in the current state is very good for improving players' skill in general as it introduces challenges gradually.

As for fun? Not so much. So it's probably better for developers to introduce another difficulty level between "story" and "normal" with nerfed bosses and mini-bosses (not only Eigong).

[Nortic]

Originally posted by Octarine:

IMO the game in the current state is very good for improving players' skill in general as it introduces challenges gradually.

As for fun? Not so much. So it's probably better for developers to introduce another difficulty level between "story" and "normal" with nerfed bosses and mini-bosses (not only Eigong).

I feel like the oposite would be a better idea, have a hard mode that makes all the boss harder and nerf the Eigong fight in normal mode. That way the difficult fight can still exist in an environement where it's difficulty is justified. I'm saying this because I don't think the difficulty of the other bosses is that bad in comparison and story mode already exists for that.

[vlakichi]

Took me around 3-4 hours to beat her.
Funny thing is that I was stuck at 2/3 of he life bar for a loooong time - but then I decided to turn off vibration for the game, and suddenly I beat her in 2 tries.
Remember to turn it off if you're having problems - might help!

[Uganda]

I watched a hitless version of the fight as I was doing it which helped me tremendously. First 2 phases took me 40 minutes and the third one took me 5 attempts after first reaching it. That said I enjoyed every second of playing and learning the boss but I can see why it can be frustrating since it's quite specific how you dodge and attack her compared to other bosses.