About the Shooting Star Ending. Or it's bad to be nice. (Spoilers)

[Cirno ⑨]

So, that second ending was a bit underwhelming...

To get it you need to go out of your in playthrough. You have to beat harder version of the last boss, that is already hard. And it ends with extermination of remaining cat people. Except for one chubby cat, that will live as the last of his kind.

Meanwhile, in the first ending, humans still survive. And there is a minuscule chance, that remaining cat people will be cured one day. And hairy boy remains with his friend Yi. And the chubby cat won't be the last of his kind. And humans don't have to rebuild on a frothen hell that is slowly returning back to life!

It feels like the game actively punishes you for trying to be nice.

You want to spare the funny robots?
- Lol says the game. lmao.
They are in existential hell now. I want to emphasize that in order to assemble them like this - you need to visit extremely dangerous areas and defeat them. And Yi is the only one that could do that!

Or when you find out about harpy cat's backstory. You start to hope, that when the dust begins to settle she will have a better fate. Because she remained somewhat nice.
- Lol says the game. Lmao.
She either remains vegetable surrounded by foster children (i assume). Or become unmade as a vegetable.

I don't mind when the game can be cruel. But this game actively punishes you for not being cruel!

[Malboro enthusiast]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Cirno ⑨:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Malboro enthusiast:

The point is to learn to let go, Solarians as a group were past their high point and they clinged to life and attempted all sorts of natural transgressions, (Like enslaving a planet full of sentient species to turn them into living computers or putting themselves into the matrix and creating a zombie apocalypse). Shooting star ending just let nature run its course and let them return to Tao, birth, growth, maturation, decay and death. Back into the natural order, he didn't kill them he just released them of this infinite cycle. Were do we have heard this before?

By that logic humans should also embrace tao. By the end of the game human population is just a minuscule inbred tribe, that must survive on a frozen hellhole, and rely on help of terminally ill chubby cat. Their technology sure as hell won't help them survive until the ice properly melts. Doesn't seem like the end for them. I prefer examples of other sols, that struggled until their very last breath. So struggle and live, ♥♥♥♥♥! And don't be like Yi!

Apemen are at the child stage, as you interact with Shuanshuan and give him the Solarian artifacts, he turns to be as curious and capable to learn as Solarians, he's just part of a primitive society.
Solarians, much more advanced but old, decrepit and in advanced degeneration, enslave Apemen and hinder their evolution, reminds me of Elizabeth Bathory bleeding out young women to bathe in their blood trying to grasp her bygone splendor.

The message is that Apemen are as full of potential and capable of Solarians just at an early stage of development, they too will grow, develop and achieve technological marvels and at the right time expire, unless they attempt to do aberrant things with their nature. tbh most likely will try to, what intelligent species will not be prideful and attempt to escape their natural limitations.

[StonedWolf62]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kellorkleft:

The message that the game is putting out is that sooner or later the needs (and wants) of a growing society will outgrow the environment they're sustained by. When that moment comes, if your goal is survival above all then it becomes only a path of destruction and spiritual death.

I think this, and do not try to mess with the cycle of death or emotions.

The Tianhao itself came about due to Eigong looking for immortality through gene editing.
She mentions that she wanted to achieve immortality to revitalize the interest in science and technology. (Maybe because of the pact Lear had made?) But in doing so accidentally synthesizes an unknown virus which they code name Tianhuo.

So part of her wanting to cure it was because she caused it in the beginning.
But instead she ended up embracing her old ways again and looked for immortality in the virus instead.

Edit: Also each main Sol had something they wanted to "keep from death or sadness".
Wither it was Goumang creating Jiangshi or Yanlao keeping artifacts locked in a vault for eternity.
Instead of embracing that life has angry, sad and happy moments like Shuanshuan, they wanted to get rid of those feelings altogether even death at whatever cost.

[kellorkleft]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από StonedWolf62:

Also each main Sol had something they wanted to "keep from death or sadness".
Wither it was Goumang creating Jiangshi or Yanlao keeping artifacts locked in a vault for eternity.
Instead of embracing that life has angry, sad and happy moments like Shuanshuan, they wanted to get rid of those feelings altogether even death at whatever cost.

Watching the result of rich class of Empyrean residents devolve over centuries of drug-addled, pleasure-seeking partying really left a chilling impression on me, for what should've been an exciting moment to see living Solarians. They were already dead inside, just waiting for the end.

I'm really glad the Normal ending for the game wasn't afraid to just tell you that it wasn't a good ending. Even if it's better than previous conditions, there's an unavoidable self-centeredness in robbing the Apemen of their independence and making them dependent on you and your scientific program on the graveyard of a world that isn't theirs. Not to mention, with a horrifying soulscape system.

I know people say that the True ending is actually worse than the good ending, but I think that's really missing the point. The normal ending is only good if you look at it solely based on potential outcomes--not actual outcomes, mind you. But, this outlook is far-sighted and bad for the same reason it's bad to side with House in New Vegas. It's the potential for survival, but at what cost?

[skylerpeters]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Skater901:

Yeah I just did the "save the apemen" ending, and I kinda agree. I think the other ending is better, where Yi and the humans go live on Penglai. But I guess that kind of goes against the themes of the story, which is that everything has an ending, and you shouldn't fight it. That's what Heng was telling Yi all along; when it's your time to die, embrace it, don't resist it. So Yi, New Kunlun, the Eternal Cauldron Project... all of it needs to die, and the Solarians need to accept their fate.

Although what does that mean for Kuafu (Uncle Chubby)? Is he still gonna die of Tianghao on earth?

But that's the thing though, Yi was justifiably upset to learn that the virus wasn't some turn of fate or the "will of the Tao" or whatever other nonsense, Eigong made it in a lab and because she said nothing about it until after their departure, plenty of Solarians willingly stayed behind to die with dignity and accept their "natural end", when in reality it wasn't natural in the slightest.

[awanderingswordsman]

I mean, going that far, wouldn't the natural end be when Yi is defeated in the beginning? Or when shuanshuan is being sacrificed? The MC can only put an end to anything in the game because he resisted his natural death.

I feel like thats the issue with many stories that have this same message. If the main characters have to overcome any life threatening adversity, that's them resisting death. "Natural death" is a delusion we give ourselves because we literally have no other choice but to die even though it sucks. If immortality could be achieved through gene editting, it'd be a very noble thing. Saving the lives of literally everyone alive. The outcome here was merely unfortunate, not because of the idea or goal, but because of one individual as well as bad luck.

I mean, would you condemn every medical cure? Those diseases were natural and we stopped them through science? Should we not try to cure cancer? Medicine as a whole exists to resist natural death.

[somedude212]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από awanderingswordsman:

I mean, going that far, wouldn't the natural end be when Yi is defeated in the beginning? Or when shuanshuan is being sacrificed? The MC can only put an end to anything in the game because he resisted his natural death.

I feel like thats the issue with many stories that have this same message. If the main characters have to overcome any life threatening adversity, that's them resisting death. "Natural death" is a delusion we give ourselves because we literally have no other choice but to die even though it sucks. If immortality could be achieved through gene editting, it'd be a very noble thing. Saving the lives of literally everyone alive. The outcome here was merely unfortunate, not because of the idea or goal, but because of one individual as well as bad luck.

I mean, would you condemn every medical cure? Those diseases were natural and we stopped them through science? Should we not try to cure cancer? Medicine as a whole exists to resist natural death.

The problem isn't just about the Tianhuo virus but also what they did once the disaster struck. Eigong selfishly hid the truth and kept pursuing immortality through increasingly questionable means and sols other than Yi did nothing to stop her. Solarians as whole either blindly followed the sols or just gave up due to their adherence to Tao. Eigong (and Yi initially) never realized that science just like tao is imperfect and it is the refusal to accept that simple truth and bear responsibility which damned the whole species.

By the time of the game, Solarians have been damaged beyond repair as a species both mentally and physically. They are either content to just waste their lives away in empty pleasures or too blinded by their desires to the point of viciously exploiting other species for their selfish ends. The whole implication seems to be that there is no cure for the Tianhuo virus and all Yi can manage to do in the normal ending is to keep Solarians alive through soulscape, which is not living at all. That's why it is better for them to accept their end. Also, Yi taught Shuanshuan many aspects of the solarian culture so their legacy will live on, even if it is through other species, which is the case in both endings anyway.

IMO, the whole theme is that one must find balance between the desire to go forward (represented by science) and spirituality (represented by Tao). I actually pin some blame on Lear for putting that Inaction declaration. In doing so, he caused the entire Solarian society to stagnate for past hundreds years. Eigong and Yi went as far as they did partially because they were fed up with how stagnant their society was becoming and believed revitalizing Solarians' interest in science would fix that.

[Skater901]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από skylerpeters:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Skater901:

Yeah I just did the "save the apemen" ending, and I kinda agree. I think the other ending is better, where Yi and the humans go live on Penglai. But I guess that kind of goes against the themes of the story, which is that everything has an ending, and you shouldn't fight it. That's what Heng was telling Yi all along; when it's your time to die, embrace it, don't resist it. So Yi, New Kunlun, the Eternal Cauldron Project... all of it needs to die, and the Solarians need to accept their fate.

Although what does that mean for Kuafu (Uncle Chubby)? Is he still gonna die of Tianghao on earth?

But that's the thing though, Yi was justifiably upset to learn that the virus wasn't some turn of fate or the "will of the Tao" or whatever other nonsense, Eigong made it in a lab and because she said nothing about it until after their departure, plenty of Solarians willingly stayed behind to die with dignity and accept their "natural end", when in reality it wasn't natural in the slightest.

Is THAT what Eigong did to betray Yi? I never figured out exactly what happened, the game wasn't clear about it. I didn't know a) what happened to make Yi turn against the council, and b) what his plan was once he got all the council seals. I still don't have the answer for b. :(

[Cirno ⑨]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από somedude212:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από awanderingswordsman:

I mean, going that far, wouldn't the natural end be when Yi is defeated in the beginning? Or when shuanshuan is being sacrificed? The MC can only put an end to anything in the game because he resisted his natural death.

I feel like thats the issue with many stories that have this same message. If the main characters have to overcome any life threatening adversity, that's them resisting death. "Natural death" is a delusion we give ourselves because we literally have no other choice but to die even though it sucks. If immortality could be achieved through gene editting, it'd be a very noble thing. Saving the lives of literally everyone alive. The outcome here was merely unfortunate, not because of the idea or goal, but because of one individual as well as bad luck.

I mean, would you condemn every medical cure? Those diseases were natural and we stopped them through science? Should we not try to cure cancer? Medicine as a whole exists to resist natural death.

The problem isn't just about the Tianhuo virus but also what they did once the disaster struck. Eigong selfishly hid the truth and kept pursuing immortality through increasingly questionable means and sols other than Yi did nothing to stop her. Solarians as whole either blindly followed the sols or just gave up due to their adherence to Tao. Eigong (and Yi initially) never realized that science just like tao is imperfect and it is the refusal to accept that simple truth and bear responsibility which damned the whole species.

By the time of the game, Solarians have been damaged beyond repair as a species both mentally and physically. They are either content to just waste their lives away in empty pleasures or too blinded by their desires to the point of viciously exploiting other species for their selfish ends. The whole implication seems to be that there is no cure for the Tianhuo virus and all Yi can manage to do in the normal ending is to keep Solarians alive through soulscape, which is not living at all. That's why it is better for them to accept their end. Also, Yi taught Shuanshuan many aspects of the solarian culture so their legacy will live on, even if it is through other species, which is the case in both endings anyway.

IMO, the whole theme is that one must find balance between the desire to go forward (represented by science) and spirituality (represented by Tao). I actually pin some blame on Lear for putting that Inaction declaration. In doing so, he caused the entire Solarian society to stagnate for past hundreds years. Eigong and Yi went as far as they did partially because they were fed up with how stagnant their society was becoming and believed revitalizing Solarians' interest in science would fix that.

The problem is, that i can come up with multiple solutions from the top of my head.

Option one. All the sols are right in their own way. It's just that they pushed their ways to the extreme. Yi could learn from their mistakes, find balance, and use harmony between religion and science to create cure. Since game came up with magical BS illness that cannot be cured - i came up with magical BS cure.
Option two: cryogenic sleep. Just freeze everyone! That way you won't need human's brains to maintain that big Matrix-like simulation. And you can freeze everyone on the planet but scientists that can work on the cure. Cat people froze the Earth, so i doubt they would have any problem with their own planet.
Option three: breed with humans.
Option four: I'm quite sure that cat harpy's jiangshi program could be used at this point. It's not like it couldn't be altered...

[Cirno ⑨]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Skater901:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από skylerpeters:

But that's the thing though, Yi was justifiably upset to learn that the virus wasn't some turn of fate or the "will of the Tao" or whatever other nonsense, Eigong made it in a lab and because she said nothing about it until after their departure, plenty of Solarians willingly stayed behind to die with dignity and accept their "natural end", when in reality it wasn't natural in the slightest.

Is THAT what Eigong did to betray Yi? I never figured out exactly what happened, the game wasn't clear about it. I didn't know a) what happened to make Yi turn against the council, and b) what his plan was once he got all the council seals. I still don't have the answer for b. :(

Even if that's the reason - Yi's actions are still pretty stupid. His personality akin to brick with PHD - a smart brick, but the brick none the less.

[awanderingswordsman]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από somedude212:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από awanderingswordsman:

I mean, going that far, wouldn't the natural end be when Yi is defeated in the beginning? Or when shuanshuan is being sacrificed? The MC can only put an end to anything in the game because he resisted his natural death.

I feel like thats the issue with many stories that have this same message. If the main characters have to overcome any life threatening adversity, that's them resisting death. "Natural death" is a delusion we give ourselves because we literally have no other choice but to die even though it sucks. If immortality could be achieved through gene editting, it'd be a very noble thing. Saving the lives of literally everyone alive. The outcome here was merely unfortunate, not because of the idea or goal, but because of one individual as well as bad luck.

I mean, would you condemn every medical cure? Those diseases were natural and we stopped them through science? Should we not try to cure cancer? Medicine as a whole exists to resist natural death.

The problem isn't just about the Tianhuo virus but also what they did once the disaster struck. Eigong selfishly hid the truth and kept pursuing immortality through increasingly questionable means and sols other than Yi did nothing to stop her. Solarians as whole either blindly followed the sols or just gave up due to their adherence to Tao. Eigong (and Yi initially) never realized that science just like tao is imperfect and it is the refusal to accept that simple truth and bear responsibility which damned the whole species.

By the time of the game, Solarians have been damaged beyond repair as a species both mentally and physically. They are either content to just waste their lives away in empty pleasures or too blinded by their desires to the point of viciously exploiting other species for their selfish ends. The whole implication seems to be that there is no cure for the Tianhuo virus and all Yi can manage to do in the normal ending is to keep Solarians alive through soulscape, which is not living at all. That's why it is better for them to accept their end. Also, Yi taught Shuanshuan many aspects of the solarian culture so their legacy will live on, even if it is through other species, which is the case in both endings anyway.

IMO, the whole theme is that one must find balance between the desire to go forward (represented by science) and spirituality (represented by Tao). I actually pin some blame on Lear for putting that Inaction declaration. In doing so, he caused the entire Solarian society to stagnate for past hundreds years. Eigong and Yi went as far as they did partially because they were fed up with how stagnant their society was becoming and believed revitalizing Solarians' interest in science would fix that.

Science can't be imperfect, just incomplete. As long as causality exists, science is "perfect". There is always an explainable cause for every action. Now, it is the case that their science was not advanced enough to find a cure.

Honestly, the actions of the story are more or less fine, it's the way the game treats them that kinda pisses me off. They can't stop the spread of the virus because they can't figure out how it's being transmitted. Given that it's from the primordial roots, it could very possible spread through light itself.

They tried to remove the gene that the virus targets but that resulted in creating house cats. They tried to fight it with Ji's blood but that created a mutant hive mind that Eigong takes over during the true ending before being promptly obliterated by the bomb.

The story is a relatively well made tragedy, but it presents this tragedy as if it was because of greed or something. Realistically, eigong did reasonable research into immortality using rhizomatic energy. There's nothing inhuman or immoral about doing that. It's even a noble pursuit. Then, by unfortunate coincidence, it created the virus. There's nothing to suggest this initial research was in any way inhuman or unsafe. I mean, it could literally happen to any medical trial in our world if a virus that spreads through light suddenly came to exist, but does that mean we should stop trying to advance medicine?

So then we jump forward to Eigong's "betrayal". The thing is, it didn't really do anything. We can see from the logs that she spent literal centuries trying to find a cure and that she did in fact want to cure the disease. After she finally gives up trying to cure it, realizing it's impossible with the time and resources she has, she instead tries to make the best of a bad situation and create a new evolution of solarians as a mutant hivemind thing. If she didn't do any of that though, it doesn't matter, their fate was sealed the moment the virus was accidentally created in the first place. She hid the truth that she created the virus and she lied about the serum's goal, but even if she told the truth, it wouldn't have made any difference, because there was no hope right from the outset.

The person who actually did something immoral was Yi, sacrificing humanity to fuel the soulscapes, which is something that doesn't really add up numbers wise. They have a "harvesting" every 2 years at most since Yi waited 2 years for one. At that harvesting they were only intending to get 3 human brains. That means the system only needs at most 1.5 human brains per year. That's nothing. The solarians could have just bartered with humanity and easily gotten like 100 death row inmates a year or something in exchange for tech. Could even have the humans try and help develop a cure so that it's billions of people researching instead of like 10 solarians.

Then they destroy earth, a habitable planet for no reason. They have to take energy from the sun...but you can see new kunlun's roots don't even cover half the sun. Just move it to the opposite side from the one earth is on and there's no issue.

These things always talk about how unnatural it is to live forever, but our entire lives are extremely unnatural. We are having this conversation over a digital network spanning the planet using electricity and language to communicate. All of that is unnatural. So are our houses, plumbing, clean water supplies, medicine, etc. Not to mention...it's not actually natural for everything to die. There's a few creatures that don't, unless something comes along and kills them.

Whats even more dumb with this message is that these people aren't even actually accepting an end. Heng doesn't think she will cease to exist, she will just exist in another form...immortally. The tao is allowed to be immortal, but nothing else is, just because. People should grow food to survive but shouldn't fight back against illness, just because. It's so arbitrary. It's like people that don't want to live forever but do want to eventually die and go to heaven...where they live forever.

[Megumin]

Not all Solarians came to New Kunlun remember, some chose to stay at Penglai. So in a way, neither endings confirmed that all Solarians die.

[awanderingswordsman]

I mean, not technically, but there was no escape from getting infected and all the best scientists left on new kunlun. Given that Heng passed away 500 years ago, I don't think theres a lot of hope there.

[Ruka]

Not gonna get into the thematic implications much because everyone's too busy arguing about BUT IT'S SAYING SCIENCE IS BAD!!!! which is...not correct (otherwise why teach shuanshuan anything about solarian technology and culture that he's implied to pass down to other generations of apemen in the future?) and acting like Eigong Did Nothing Wrong Actually Because Science Is Always Correct (the obsession with immortality textually destroyed the Solarians; Eigong's immortality project was bankrolled by wealthy backers and it's entirely possible she made the error that led to Tianhuo because she was under pressure to get results, and then she doubled down to start making mutants because it's fine as long as she 'fixes her mistake' and starts treating 'disposable' Solarians like her text subjects because now SHE gets to decide what the fate of all Solarians is, since she holds the power to do that. It's not about whether immortality itself is bad, it's the trap of the repeating cycle and being stuck in a holding pattern as you desperately try to escape it by exerting your own power over others)

The game is a tragedy, that's why all the sols are ruined miserable husks despite their usually genuinely good intentions (dunno if there's any fixing Jiequan though lol). It's why everyone is basically coping poorly or in stages of grief about a situation they don't think there's a solution for (and there very well may not be). Someone made a mistake in an attempt to make everyone immortal, and now everyone is paying for it, including an entire other species that in some other time could have been visited in the spirit of scientific discovery and curiosity for other sapient life.

I will point out that you're making a mistake in the human calculations - the map as we see it is a game abstraction. Peach Blossom Village is marked on the map as Livestock Pen 95, implying the existence of at least 94 more. It's entirely possible that there are entire rows of pens solely for harvesting brains, staggered on a schedule so there's non-stop harvesting to get the amount of brains required.

[Ventus]

Yi had to go. He did too many terrible things and he had it coming. The only thing that I hate about this ending is that ShuanShuan gets his heart broken.

[awanderingswordsman]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ruka:

Not gonna get into the thematic implications much because everyone's too busy arguing about BUT IT'S SAYING SCIENCE IS BAD!!!! which is...not correct (otherwise why teach shuanshuan anything about solarian technology and culture that he's implied to pass down to other generations of apemen in the future?) and acting like Eigong Did Nothing Wrong Actually Because Science Is Always Correct (the obsession with immortality textually destroyed the Solarians; Eigong's immortality project was bankrolled by wealthy backers and it's entirely possible she made the error that led to Tianhuo because she was under pressure to get results, and then she doubled down to start making mutants because it's fine as long as she 'fixes her mistake' and starts treating 'disposable' Solarians like her text subjects because now SHE gets to decide what the fate of all Solarians is, since she holds the power to do that. It's not about whether immortality itself is bad, it's the trap of the repeating cycle and being stuck in a holding pattern as you desperately try to escape it by exerting your own power over others)

The game is a tragedy, that's why all the sols are ruined miserable husks despite their usually genuinely good intentions (dunno if there's any fixing Jiequan though lol). It's why everyone is basically coping poorly or in stages of grief about a situation they don't think there's a solution for (and there very well may not be). Someone made a mistake in an attempt to make everyone immortal, and now everyone is paying for it, including an entire other species that in some other time could have been visited in the spirit of scientific discovery and curiosity for other sapient life.

I will point out that you're making a mistake in the human calculations - the map as we see it is a game abstraction. Peach Blossom Village is marked on the map as Livestock Pen 95, implying the existence of at least 94 more. It's entirely possible that there are entire rows of pens solely for harvesting brains, staggered on a schedule so there's non-stop harvesting to get the amount of brains required.

Yeah but none of that other stuff made any difference because the virus was created before basically all of those bad things. If eigong had immediately made a press release, gotten jailed or executed, things would have ended up worse. The absolute hopeless doom of the virus subverts any messages about control. IF the virus had been curable but eigong decided not to because pursuing mutant research was more promising for immortality, then the story might have a point, but as it is, eigong legitimately was the best hope for curing the virus and still wasnt' able to do it. Yi's truth or Eigong's lies, it didn't matter, because there was no hope either way.

And yes, maybe Eigong originally did something risky that resulted in the virus, but we have no evidence pointing to that. Given how explicit late game logs are about everything else, I feel like we'd know. You'd probably see some regret over her mistake "if only I didn't ____".

Even 95 other pens only ups it to roughly 150 brains a year, which is not a lot in the face of billions of humans. However, the game also talks multiple times about the lack of space on new kunlun so I really doubt theres tremendously more humans than 100 villages or so.