Unbounded Counter is not good, and needs a serious rebalance

[kellorkleft]

As it is now, the counter is neither fun to use nor rewarding to put the effort into.

Now I gotta admit that in theory, this mechanic is great. I desperately want to love it. This move is supposed to let you defeat what up to this point have been unblockable attacks, but requires charging which demands more respect to timing and positioning than a normal deflect. The key is to understand your enemy, and anticipating their next move as well as knowing which are best for dodging and countering. Sounds awesome.

In practice, this is not at all the experience I've had with the counter. The game's enemies and encounters do not give this ability the space it needs. For one, the charge time for the counter is short, but not quite short enough to respond to most crimson attacks you face. Even for using the counter at its most basic, deflecting the turrets that shoot crimson projectiles, the charge time is barely enough to respond to the start of their aim-then-fire attack. Now, this is perfectly fine when you're dealing with only turrets. However, when timing demands frame-perfection while you're already in the middle of trying to deflect another attack, dodging or using a talisman, then it's incredibly unlikely you'll be able to pull it off; maybe it's my own lacking chrono-sense, but there's too much room for error in having to gauge whether the counter's charge-time is short enough to successfully use within the window of opportunity to use this ability confidently.

To compound the issue here, the unbounded counter is *not* friendly with the rest of your abilities. So far, I've made the effort to use every move I've unlocked because they all combo into eachother. Not so for unbounded counter:
Due to how immediate your timing has to be, you can't really take extra time to attack, and then lead into a counter.
You cannot deflect while charging a counter, which means if you're fighting a crowd of enemies, you better forget finding any window of opportunity to use a counter that does not immediately get canceled by a separate incoming attack.
What I find the most maddening is that since the counter has a time-limit for how long you can hold your charge before leaving the counter stance, you cannot do something like enter the stance during a momentary pause in the fight, where you fully expect the next crimson attack to come your way....So, not only do you have to wait to use your counter, you also have to make sure you only charge it when the enemy already starts their crimson attack so you know you can pull it off before you lose the stance. Give me a break.
Now, you actually can substitute your counter for a deflect, which is nice, but only after it's finished charging; you'll either start charging your counter too late to deflect a normal attack or you'll start it too early to deflect the crimson attack.

The worst part of all this is that even if it's possible to successfully counter an attack it's still not worth risking it until you know you've got the perfect opportunity. More often than not, crimson attacks are going to be the most hard-hitting blows you'll receive in combat. So, why would you leave yourself open to that if you don't even have complete confidence that you'll succeed? Just so you could potentially do more damage than normal? I don't buy it. You know what's much more reliable for leading into damage? Dodging. Or jumping. Or jump-kicking. Or even the jump-deflection you get near the beginning of the game. Of course, I know that unbounded counter is not meant to replace these moves and all must be used in their own time, but it still stands that the only reason you should ever use unbounded counter is if you absolutely have to, or if the situation is trivial enough to do confidently. And that's just not fun.
I really was excited to unlock the unbounded counter, and it felt like a huge upgrade to my arsenal. I also happen to really enjoy landing perfect deflects in this game because of how rewarding they are, so this felt like taking things to the next level. Now, that enthusiasm is completely deflated and replaced with sheer frustration over the sobering reality that I will be *forced* to use this for the rest of the game in order to progress.

But, it really doesn't have to be this way. The Unbounded Counter can be easily fixed! These fixes can include letting the player deflect with a counter at any time, decreasing the counter's charge-time by half, allowing the player to hold the stance for longer than an extra second, or a bonus idea: Make the counter effective with groups by letting it briefly stun enemies around you when successfully done, rather than just the one crimson attacker. That would at least make it possible to safely use in groups. One or more of these changes would go such a long way to improving the counter as a strong and reliable power.

That's all of my thoughts about that. Thanks for listening.

[Mato]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Summoner:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mato:

The problem might be with reaction time, which I am forced to acknowledge, that not everyone has fast enough reflexes to react in time to counter most crimson attacks. My girlfriend really struggled to prepare it against attacks that I pretty much brushed off, so that's where my hypothesis comes from.

Men have 20ms faster reaction time on average for visual stimulus. The fastest reaction times are among 17 years old boys. Regular exercise can help (about 10 ms) but women can never close the gap. It's one of the reasons why you'll never see a female pro gamer achieving anything in the e-sports scene.

I hate to break it to you, but my girlfriend is transgender, so that doesn't really apply here unless somehow hormonal therapy affects reaction time in a significant degree. But then again, she had poor reaction time even before E. I'm willing to bet that the reason women are less often seen in e-sports and are thought to have a worse average reaction time is because of social conditioning, rather than biological. (aka. expectations to engage in hobbies that don't develop reaction time as much, or simply social pressure that ostracizes women from spaces in which men are a majority) Ultimately I believe it's a mix of genetic and social factors.

Regardless, I'd prefer to keep this discussion related to the game. The differences between reaction time based on genetics probably don't matter as much as the ones caused by conditioning/training (except for fringe scenarios I suppose), so I don't think it's fair to assume that every man should have an easier time performing successful unbounded counters.

[Stübi Senpai]

Its a practice thing to be honest. The fact that it unlocks relatively "late" into the game means a lot of people struggle to integrate it into their playstyle. Its hard to be playing a game for 10 hours and then you get a new mechanic that can potentially change the way you can approach combat entirely.

I only started using it consistently around the Fengs, and didn't "master" it until Eigong. The two most important things to incorporate it successfully imo:

- You can just keep holding the parry button down after a regular parry to go into the stance in one fluid input. So if you're not comfortable trying to do it "Raw" this helps.
- You shouldn't force yourself to use it unless either the telegraph for a big red is incoming, or you know the enemies moveset well enough to know when exactly the next attack is coming. It's entirely optional, it just makes the game way easier.

The only fight in the game where it feels like disregarding UC entirely is a punishment is Eigong, and I'd argue as the final Boss having her be the "Final exam" of every mechanic up to that point is fair.

[Summoner]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Stübi Senpai:

The only fight in the game where it feels like disregarding UC entirely is a punishment is Eigong, and I'd argue as the final Boss having her be the "Final exam" of every mechanic up to that point is fair.

It's quite poetic that you can beat Eigong (all 3 phases) on lv1 with nothing but what you start the game with. No jades, no bow, no air dash, you don't even need the Tai-Chi kick.

[thecrazyestonian]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Seisachtheia:

I also hate unbound counter and very much dislike using it in this game. The good news I suppose is that unbounded counter is only necessary for exploration where you aren't in a combat situation and thus have some time to set it up. I am literally just about to walk into the final boss and up until this point unbounded has not been necessary, I've just dodged.

However, I have discovered that if you think about the parry mechanic slightly differently it can help you get the timing for unbounded down and I'll share that.

Don't think of the parry button as a parry, think of it as a guard. Really, you don't parry in this game you guard, and when you do you take "internal damage" instead of "actual damage" which will heal back, but you can negate taking any damage if you "perfect guard" (parry) an attack.

Now, when you unlock unbounded counter your guard changes function, you can no longer guard indefinitely (by holding down the button) but you gain a "guard burst" which is even more powerful than a "perfect guard". It not only nullifies damage but also opens up enemies to massive counterattacks and can be upgraded to give you lots of different bonuses.

Personally, I found thinking about it this way helped me get to grips with the unbounded counter; I still hate the mechanic and try to avoid using it by using the other tools at your disposal, but at least I now have a way to think about it that makes it make sense. Hopefully that works for you too and good luck!

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Seisachtheia:

I also hate unbound counter and very much dislike using it in this game. The good news I suppose is that unbounded counter is only necessary for exploration where you aren't in a combat situation and thus have some time to set it up. I am literally just about to walk into the final boss and up until this point unbounded has not been necessary, I've just dodged.

However, I have discovered that if you think about the parry mechanic slightly differently it can help you get the timing for unbounded down and I'll share that.

Don't think of the parry button as a parry, think of it as a guard. Really, you don't parry in this game you guard, and when you do you take "internal damage" instead of "actual damage" which will heal back, but you can negate taking any damage if you "perfect guard" (parry) an attack.

Now, when you unlock unbounded counter your guard changes function, you can no longer guard indefinitely (by holding down the button) but you gain a "guard burst" which is even more powerful than a "perfect guard". It not only nullifies damage but also opens up enemies to massive counterattacks and can be upgraded to give you lots of different bonuses.

Personally, I found thinking about it this way helped me get to grips with the unbounded counter; I still hate the mechanic and try to avoid using it by using the other tools at your disposal, but at least I now have a way to think about it that makes it make sense. Hopefully that works for you too and good luck!

the unbound counter literally builds massive internal damage and if you use a talisman you can basically trivalize the game. what are you rambling about

[Rimzrj]

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