Unbounded Counter is not good, and needs a serious rebalance

[kellorkleft]

As it is now, the counter is neither fun to use nor rewarding to put the effort into.

Now I gotta admit that in theory, this mechanic is great. I desperately want to love it. This move is supposed to let you defeat what up to this point have been unblockable attacks, but requires charging which demands more respect to timing and positioning than a normal deflect. The key is to understand your enemy, and anticipating their next move as well as knowing which are best for dodging and countering. Sounds awesome.

In practice, this is not at all the experience I've had with the counter. The game's enemies and encounters do not give this ability the space it needs. For one, the charge time for the counter is short, but not quite short enough to respond to most crimson attacks you face. Even for using the counter at its most basic, deflecting the turrets that shoot crimson projectiles, the charge time is barely enough to respond to the start of their aim-then-fire attack. Now, this is perfectly fine when you're dealing with only turrets. However, when timing demands frame-perfection while you're already in the middle of trying to deflect another attack, dodging or using a talisman, then it's incredibly unlikely you'll be able to pull it off; maybe it's my own lacking chrono-sense, but there's too much room for error in having to gauge whether the counter's charge-time is short enough to successfully use within the window of opportunity to use this ability confidently.

To compound the issue here, the unbounded counter is *not* friendly with the rest of your abilities. So far, I've made the effort to use every move I've unlocked because they all combo into eachother. Not so for unbounded counter:
Due to how immediate your timing has to be, you can't really take extra time to attack, and then lead into a counter.
You cannot deflect while charging a counter, which means if you're fighting a crowd of enemies, you better forget finding any window of opportunity to use a counter that does not immediately get canceled by a separate incoming attack.
What I find the most maddening is that since the counter has a time-limit for how long you can hold your charge before leaving the counter stance, you cannot do something like enter the stance during a momentary pause in the fight, where you fully expect the next crimson attack to come your way....So, not only do you have to wait to use your counter, you also have to make sure you only charge it when the enemy already starts their crimson attack so you know you can pull it off before you lose the stance. Give me a break.
Now, you actually can substitute your counter for a deflect, which is nice, but only after it's finished charging; you'll either start charging your counter too late to deflect a normal attack or you'll start it too early to deflect the crimson attack.

The worst part of all this is that even if it's possible to successfully counter an attack it's still not worth risking it until you know you've got the perfect opportunity. More often than not, crimson attacks are going to be the most hard-hitting blows you'll receive in combat. So, why would you leave yourself open to that if you don't even have complete confidence that you'll succeed? Just so you could potentially do more damage than normal? I don't buy it. You know what's much more reliable for leading into damage? Dodging. Or jumping. Or jump-kicking. Or even the jump-deflection you get near the beginning of the game. Of course, I know that unbounded counter is not meant to replace these moves and all must be used in their own time, but it still stands that the only reason you should ever use unbounded counter is if you absolutely have to, or if the situation is trivial enough to do confidently. And that's just not fun.
I really was excited to unlock the unbounded counter, and it felt like a huge upgrade to my arsenal. I also happen to really enjoy landing perfect deflects in this game because of how rewarding they are, so this felt like taking things to the next level. Now, that enthusiasm is completely deflated and replaced with sheer frustration over the sobering reality that I will be *forced* to use this for the rest of the game in order to progress.

But, it really doesn't have to be this way. The Unbounded Counter can be easily fixed! These fixes can include letting the player deflect with a counter at any time, decreasing the counter's charge-time by half, allowing the player to hold the stance for longer than an extra second, or a bonus idea: Make the counter effective with groups by letting it briefly stun enemies around you when successfully done, rather than just the one crimson attacker. That would at least make it possible to safely use in groups. One or more of these changes would go such a long way to improving the counter as a strong and reliable power.

That's all of my thoughts about that. Thanks for listening.

[Seisachtheia]

I also hate unbound counter and very much dislike using it in this game. The good news I suppose is that unbounded counter is only necessary for exploration where you aren't in a combat situation and thus have some time to set it up. I am literally just about to walk into the final boss and up until this point unbounded has not been necessary, I've just dodged.

However, I have discovered that if you think about the parry mechanic slightly differently it can help you get the timing for unbounded down and I'll share that.

Don't think of the parry button as a parry, think of it as a guard. Really, you don't parry in this game you guard, and when you do you take "internal damage" instead of "actual damage" which will heal back, but you can negate taking any damage if you "perfect guard" (parry) an attack.

Now, when you unlock unbounded counter your guard changes function, you can no longer guard indefinitely (by holding down the button) but you gain a "guard burst" which is even more powerful than a "perfect guard". It not only nullifies damage but also opens up enemies to massive counterattacks and can be upgraded to give you lots of different bonuses.

Personally, I found thinking about it this way helped me get to grips with the unbounded counter; I still hate the mechanic and try to avoid using it by using the other tools at your disposal, but at least I now have a way to think about it that makes it make sense. Hopefully that works for you too and good luck!

[Miso]

amen

[TakeMyLunch]

Bad news: It's most likely staying the way it is.
Good news: You can ignore using it! Dodging red attacks is perfectly viable the whole game.

Personally I like it thanks to a Jade Build I like to call "Internal Transference" where I use:
Swift Blade - Build up Internal self damage with attacking
Qi Swipe - To stop Precise Parries from stopping Internal Buildup (Also lets you Perfect Parry for Talisman charges faster if you decide to use other Jades that consume them like Qi Blade.)
Reciprocation - Give that Internal to you foes with an Unbound Counter and then Talisman them for massive damage!
As long as you keep damaging them the Internal Damage won't regenerate so if the boss is faster (like Jiequan) you can Unbound>Bow(First Arrow Stun)>Talisman for a cleaner hit.

Not saying Unbound is the best for all situations (Especially crowds why are you using it in crowds???? It's meant for Unblockable Red attacks. Which are mainly used by bosses and are slow enough that using it is fine there.) Risk is way higher than Reward even without the build above amplifying it to max... but it's not needed to beat the game beyond some progression blocks outside combat. So unless you want to mess around with it and try to really beat down a boss it's better to ignore it and dodge reds instead of taking the risk of eating what are often the strongest attacks a boss can do.

[vinylanddigital]

At certain points when you really need it, the moves are telegraphed well enough in advance to use it effectively. There is some BS though when you have flying projectiles coming at the exact same time as the red attack.

[Shiro]

There's a jade that's supposed to allow repeatedly UC with the condition all of your UCs hit the mark... I wonder if anyone at all have managed to actually use it properly. Perhaps it could be the thing to defend against absolutely every attack no matter type or number... I guess we'll never know :)

[Scorpix]

They cant change it much because it would be op. You would be able to just stand in one place and parry almost everything. You just need a bit of training and you will be able to use it with no problem. It isnt easy but rewarding

[Amrehlu]

Eh, it's okay. It's fun to use when I feel like it but isn't needed. Hell, you don't need to normal parry almost anything in the game, you can just dodge or play footsies to avoid most attacks from enemies and bosses alike.

Don't like it, don't use it. It's just a tool to make some fights easier, as a way to progress block, and as a form of player expression. I haven't seen be being required for any of the fights outside of one mini-boss where it is only needed to destroy 2 turrets that spawn. You can just avoid them, kill the mini-boss, then casually finish them with the unbound with no pressure from the boss.

[Omega]

After watching other people play and use it, I am just in awe on how much you can do it with it if you're actually really good with it and it looks INCREDIBLY strong if you are good at it but holy is it hard to actually use it well.

Don't want to spoil but you there are people who have beaten the bosses without attacking at all and only 1 talisman

[PersonaWolf]

Originally posted by Shiro:

There's a jade that's supposed to allow repeatedly UC with the condition all of your UCs hit the mark... I wonder if anyone at all have managed to actually use it properly. Perhaps it could be the thing to defend against absolutely every attack no matter type or number... I guess we'll never know :)

Yeah I used it in my build to beat Eigong. It was really clutch getting through one of her attack types in the second and third phase. It was however the only time I used it, but I have to say in this game in particular I found a use for nearly every single Jade at one point outside of the charge attack Jades. That mainly being because I didnt like the charge attack much and so I never really cared to build around it.

[SolidSnake6991]

Agreed. Thought the game was near perfect until this and the annoying platforming of some stages were brought in. Still an incredible game.

[leo_gear]

DIVINE HAND!! Unbound Counter!!

PS: I'm pretty sure there are some cool changes to make Chess better that could be made but we're not going to. Part of playing games is adapting to their rules.

[Sir_Sam_Vimes]

lmao unbounded counter is already insanely overpowered and you want to make it even better??

[Mr-Ace]

I think it's fine.. I think your suggestions would make the move OP. You're right about it not working well with groups, but I only really used unbounded counter in bosses.. not while exploring. I think it's designed mostly for bosses- when you need it you're given enough time to charge it in my opinion.
Having a move with difficult execution just means you need to be really on top of the situation to use it well.

[Mato]

As someone who has used unbounded counter REPEATEDLY against Lady Ethereal, The Fengs and all three phases of Eigong, I have to kindly disagree.
One thing that should let you acknowledge the true power of unbounded counter is that after performing a perfect parry you can simply not release your parry button and you'll begin preparing unbounded counter MUCH faster. Not to mention that you don't have to wait for the entirety of the animation for Yi to prepare the orb between his hands. You can effectively hold the parry button for about half a second or less and it will still successfully perform an unbounded counter.
The problem might be with reaction time, which I am forced to acknowledge, that not everyone has fast enough reflexes to react in time to counter most crimson attacks. My girlfriend really struggled to prepare it against attacks that I pretty much brushed off, so that's where my hypothesis comes from.
But that doesn't make unbounded counter bad in my opinion. It's a high risk high reward mechanic that enriches the gameplay but doesn't force less skilled players to dedicate themselves to it. In the meantime, it increases the skill ceiling for players that wish to be challenged even more and express their skillset with more diversity.
That's my opinion at least, and ofc, you are still entitled to yours.

PS. lmao, apparently steam is censoring F u x i's name.

[Summoner]

Originally posted by Mato:

The problem might be with reaction time, which I am forced to acknowledge, that not everyone has fast enough reflexes to react in time to counter most crimson attacks. My girlfriend really struggled to prepare it against attacks that I pretty much brushed off, so that's where my hypothesis comes from.

Men have 20ms faster reaction time on average for visual stimulus. The fastest reaction times are among 17 years old boys. Regular exercise can help (about 10 ms) but women can never close the gap. It's one of the reasons why you'll never see a female pro gamer achieving anything in the e-sports scene.