Parry sucks

[śpioch]

The idea is fine, the response of Yi is fine but this game tries to add Sekiro parry system without adding posture system which is integral part of it (Internal damage blah blah, not rly). You have mini bosses which will attack you non stop (with ABSURD range btw) and even if you perfect parry the whole pattern you are rewarded with...nothing. There is no opening for attack, no damage, nothing. The game needs you to parry but there is no follow up for that in combat.

[Skater901]

Originally posted by MadderPacker:

It's a weird comparison because if you equip the hedgehog jade, it's the same as sekiro with just the extra step of needing to detonate a talisman to kill the enemy (Again, Water Style helps here greatly). If you're not using the hedgehog jade then it's kinda your fault.

Also no, in Sekiro, you don't need to reduce their health to 50% for an effect on posture recovery. A quick wiki search says that posture recovery is 66% at 75% health, maybe that's why you can now kill them at 75% health?

I mainly talked about posture recovery because in NineSols, the enemies recover internal damage too if you don't deal either type of damage for a while, same as sekiro's posture system (Again, the hedgehog jade makes it the same as Sekiro with just 1 extra step).

IF you equip the Hedgehog Jade, and that's still an item you need to find in the game. Meaning before you get that item, you can parry all day and achieve nothing. I think someone else pointed this out; you shouldn't need to find items later on in the game in order to make the game's mechanics work properly. The different Jades should give you different options/playstyles, not having one Jade be mandatory for the combat to make sense.

I didn't know that about the health for bosses... idk if that's ever actually explained in-game. It's explained that Wolf's posture recovery goes down once you hit 50% health, so I assumed the threshold was the same for bosses. Interesting to know that it is not the same. I wonder if it was maybe 50% day one, but then they patched it later, and forgot to add in anything explaining it? Cause it's definitely hard to wear down the boss's health bar, so 75% being the threshold for posture recovery reduction makes sense.

I think it still doesn't make sense to compare posture to internal damage. What you've said right there highlights the reason why; enemies recover internal damage if you don't deal damage. That's the whole issue; in Sekiro, parrying gets you closer to defeating your enemy even if there's no windows to counter-attack. In NineSols, it doesn't (unless you use the Hedgehog Jade, but again, see my point above). So in NineSols, you NEED windows to counter-attack in. Now that's fine, assuming all enemies/bosses give you sufficient windows for counter-attacking. And I think that's where the real issue is; some people, myself included, feel that for certain bosses/enemies, there are either no windows for counter attacking, or too few windows for counter attacking, or that the windows are too small for counter attacking.

idk if you can really argue that, though, cause it honestly comes down to individual preference and skill. I mean if you could objectively prove that an enemy has NO windows to counter attack and literally all you can do is parry, or take damage to counter attack, then that's an objectively bad enemy for this combat system. But I don't think there's any enemy that doesn't give you any windows to attack; just some enemies, the windows seem far too small. :)

[JackKaif]

Originally posted by Skater901:

it honestly comes down to individual preference and skill. I mean if you could objectively prove that an enemy has NO windows to counter attack and literally all you can do is parry, or take damage to counter attack, then that's an objectively bad enemy for this combat system. But I don't think there's any enemy that doesn't give you any windows to attack; just some enemies, the windows seem far too small. :)

Recorded a couple videos for you recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEjgErP7h_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCvlFuW8Pss

As for me this windows are wide enough.

[Skater901]

Originally posted by JackKaif:

Recorded a couple videos for you recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEjgErP7h_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCvlFuW8Pss

As for me this windows are wide enough.

Bro WHAT, how do you do the Talisman into the dash attack?? I didn't think you could do that, because you would still get hit by the slash. How does that work?? Does the Talisman dash act as an Immortal Dash to dodge the damage... ? Also doing the Talisman in between the two hit combos is crazy, I swear I've tried that and I get hit.

Also your background samurai seem to pause for a lot longer after their 3-hit combo than they did for me. :/ I'll have to compare when I get back to the Empyrian District.

Also, how are you not getting pushed too far away to Talisman? Are you constantly trying to move towards the enemy or something? You kept showing how you have no Jades equipped, but I swear I get pushed back more when I parry.

[JackKaif]

Originally posted by Skater901:

Does the Talisman dash act as an Immortal Dash to dodge the damage... ? Also doing the Talisman in between the two hit combos is crazy, I swear I've tried that and I get hit.

No, talisman dash has no iframes as far as I know. I just have enough time to slip behind his model before his blade starts dealing damage.

Originally posted by Skater901:

Also your background samurai seem to pause for a lot longer after their 3-hit combo than they did for me. :/ I'll have to compare when I get back to the Empyrian District.

Let me know, please.

Originally posted by Skater901:

Also, how are you not getting pushed too far away to Talisman? Are you constantly trying to move towards the enemy or something? You kept showing how you have no Jades equipped, but I swear I get pushed back more when I parry.

Yes, I'm always walking towards the enemy who's damage I'm parrying. 2-3 vertical slashes pushing a lot but It's enough time to make a few steps before his next attack and cut the distance. Sometimes I use Immortal Dash if I feel that just walking is not enough, have a look.
I was fighting with black samurais without reducing pushbacks Jade the whole game so dunno how is it.

[StonedWolf62]

Gotten through the game and I can say you have time to stick talismans and get attacks in most the time.
Edit: And I'm only saying this because I'm horrible at these parry heavy games most the time lol.

Also, you don't need the Hedgehog Jade to keep internal damage up.
Internal Damage pauses healing on enemies when you parry them.
I was able to test it on those Samurai, not sure if it works for range or bosses though.
But I would assume it works for bosses too.

[Skater901]

Originally posted by JackKaif:

Let me know, please.

So I haven't got to the background knights yet, but I got to that black samurai in your first video. I tried some of the stuff you did, and one thing I noticed is that if you try to Talisman after the double slash, if he decides to do his dash slash, he turns around and hits you with that almost instantly, before you can detonate the Talisman. So you kind of have to get lucky with the enemy combos.

[Skater901]

Ok, got back up to the background samurai. They do pause for a bit after their 3-hit combo, enough time to slap a Talisman on them. I think my problem with them is that their initial attack comes out SO fast, that I don't think you have time to react if you're facing the wrong way. And if you get hit by the first attack, you're probably gonna get hit by the others, so then you don't have enough time to retaliate before they teleport away.

idk how I feel about this. On the one hand, it's pretty hard core, but on the other hand, they are in a pretty late-game area, and you should have had to GIT GUD to get this far. The way I'm dealing with them is just trying to jump in the air so it doesn't matter which way I'm facing when they teleport in.

EDIT: Ok one more thing I noticed about them; if you don't perfect parry their last hit, the knock back pushes you so far away from them that you can't get to them to Talisman them before they teleport out. So they're a very aggressive enemy requiring perfect parries, and their opening attack is SO FAST.

[JackKaif]

Originally posted by Skater901:

after the double slash, if he decides to do his dash slash, he turns around and hits you with that almost instantly, before you can detonate the Talisman. So you kind of have to get lucky with the enemy combos.

He will decide dash slash only if you're too far from him. He will never use it if you're close enough. It's not about luck but positioning.

Originally posted by Skater901:

their initial attack comes out SO fast, that I don't think you have time to react if you're facing the wrong way.

Maybe but you still have jump-parry to parry attack from every direction. I'm not the best player but I find his start-up long enough to turn around if it's neccessary.

Originally posted by Skater901:

if you don't perfect parry their last hit, the knock back pushes you so far away from them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0cyI35pCKE
I can't check what if you won't parry the last attack because I completed the game with max level so I have Swift Rise skill and even if I don't parry his last slash at all I still will be able to stick the talisman.

Btw, I'm sure this is what the game about: learning timings and parrying. If you do you'll be rewarded for it unlike what OP said here.

[A Fragile Bear]

efn idiot. parry and jade system work together. and the skills. its actually super rewarding and well done. so yeah, get good matey.

[Seisachtheia]

While that scimitar-wielding enemy was hard for me on the first couple of encounters, I don't find them to be that difficult. Parry his attacks (plenty of opportunity once you get the timing down) then stick a talisman, there are so many tools the game gives you to deal with them.

You can equip hedgehog jade so your parrys deal damage
Equip the jade that reduces knockback on parry
Switch your talisman to Water Flow so it automatically detonates
Use your bow when they start the animation for the lunge attack

I'm really bad at these games so I am almost always forced to use any tool I can to succeed...are players that are better just intentionally avoiding the tools the game gives you and then complaining? I don't understand, and don't tell me it's because the enemy is poorly designed. If I can read their attack patterns and know the timings and it takes me more than an hour to beat any boss my first time through this game clearly it's very possible.

[Skater901]

Originally posted by JackKaif:

He will decide dash slash only if you're too far from him. He will never use it if you're close enough. It's not about luck but positioning.

I think l was pretty close when that happened. :/ Anyway whatever, I'm too lazy to figure out how to record and upload it, so I'll just have to leave my claims as unverified. :) I have finished the game and am gonna finish it again, so it's not like I hate the game or can't beat it. I just think that maybe a couple of the enemies are a bit too unforgiving.

[JackKaif]

Originally posted by Skater901:

so it's not like I hate the game or can't beat it. I just think that maybe a couple of the enemies are a bit too unforgiving.

Yes, I don't mean you're hating the game or whatever. Just trying to prove my opinion that the player is rewarded for his parries, even no matter perfect or not. Even without jades. I used Water Flow + Stasis Jade + Avarice Jade changing them only for boss fights. Can't remember any common enemy who can resist backstab + talisman combo. So it's hard to understand OP's complains.
But I agree with your last sentence, there are some enemies stronger then others. Still I can count only 4 or 5 background samurai and same number of black samurai so they are very rare to be slightly harder.

[Skater901]

Originally posted by JackKaif:

Yes, I don't mean you're hating the game or whatever. Just trying to prove my opinion that the player is rewarded for his parries, even no matter perfect or not.

Sorry, I should have been clearer with my reply instead of smashing it all into one paragraph. That comment about not hating the game was directed at Fragile Bear and Seisachtheia.