Thoughts after playing the demo

[TequilaSe'lai]

So I gave the demo a shot, because I enjoy metroidvanias with high quality, hand-drawn art, well-written characters, and deep lore to uncover as the game progresses. Even in the demo, Laika has some absolutely phenomenal lore and the background art is incredibly well made, but unfortunately I feel all this is ruined by some of the choices made for the core gameplay mechanics.

Most metroidvanias are side-scrollers where a character moves at a reasonable pace on foot, which gives the player more time to absorb and appreciate the art that clearly had a lot of heart and effort put into it. Because Laika primarily takes place on a bike where you whip around at high speed, it becomes virtually impossible to sit back and appreciate the beautiful backgrounds for most of the game.

This is made even worse by the fact that the backgrounds are extremely intricate and busy by default, and so when you move quickly on the bike, they become really blurry and this actually negatively impacts the gameplay itself. It's a lot harder to track the enemies' bullets when you're spinning around while the background details are also getting blurred and moving quickly at the same time.

What happens is that my eyes don't know what to focus on, and the enjoyability of the gameplay suffers for it. This would be far less of an issue if the bike-riding was a side mechanic to travel between areas, rather than the main feature of combat and exploration.

If Laika had more traditional movement and combat on foot like Hollow Knight or the majority of other metroidvanias, then I would buy this game in a heartbeat. But unfortunately in the game's current state, the gameplay ends up being frustrating due to some questionable choices to make the spinny bike-riding the main feature, which ends up becoming a distraction from the otherwise incredible setting and fantastic art that goes with it.

I don't know how much the game mechanics can shift gears (pun somewhat intended) at this point, but I really hope the devs can take my two cents into consideration and find a good balance between creating unique movement/combat system, and giving the beautiful art a chance to shine. Either in this game, or future explorations of the world of Laika

[Fray]

The bike mechanic is what sets it apart and is something many people, myself included, adore.
If it's not for you, that's fair, that's what demos are for and it's okay to not like a game's mechanics.
i will say, however, many people do get instantly discouraged by it because it does deviate so heavily from something they're used to and it may take some time to adjust and learn. For instance, you don't have to aim and shoot right away, you can hold the aim for a few seconds as a defense to slow down time and orient yourself more precisely to block an incoming shot. The combat being a little clumsy to learn at first fits with the story as well. While Laika herself is certainly capable by now, she wasn't made the defender of the village because of innate superhuman capabilities of motorcycle combat. She just, much to her dismay, always comes back. It's perfectly okay, and lore-appropriate even, to die a lot.

[TequilaSe'lai]

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

The bike mechanic is what sets it apart and is something many people, myself included, adore.
If it's not for you, that's fair, that's what demos are for and it's okay to not like a game's mechanics.
i will say, however, many people do get instantly discouraged by it because it does deviate so heavily from something they're used to and it may take some time to adjust and learn. For instance, you don't have to aim and shoot right away, you can hold the aim for a few seconds as a defense to slow down time and orient yourself more precisely to block an incoming shot. The combat being a little clumsy to learn at first fits with the story as well. While Laika herself is certainly capable by now, she wasn't made the defender of the village because of innate superhuman capabilities of motorcycle combat. She just, much to her dismay, always comes back. It's perfectly okay, and lore-appropriate even, to die a lot.

Yeah I don't disagree with the bike mechanic being part of the appeal for some people. I could get used to it if there were further tweaks aiming and rotating so that it becomes more rewarding than frustrating.

But it's not just the fact that it deviates from standard metroidvania movement/combat, it's the fact that such unique combat is combined with very detailed and busy background art and characters. Like I said, all these factors combined with the fast movement and blurring makes it a lot more difficult to even see what you're aiming at or dodging. This wouldn't be an issue if graphics were simpler like in a racing game or smth, but the whole point of this game is visual worldbuilding carried by intricate BG art.

Without creating ways to mitigate the blurring factor that I mentioned before, it becomes an accessibility issue when there is simply too much visual information to absorb at once, when it's combined with a nontraditional movement/combat. I understand there's only so much the dev could do to address this. It's still an interesting and unique approach, but I just don't think it was executed very well, or with accessibility in mind

[Fray]

Are you playing on a steam deck by chance? I've heard of a few visibility issues on the deck but I just checked to refresh my memory on PC and I genuinely can't see any blurring. I especially can't really see how the background would end up that way, since they incorporate parallax. There's also a haze to distinguish it from the foreground even at a standstill. Enemies stand out quite well, there's not that much blue in the game aside from their uniforms. Bullets have bright white trails and are slow enough projectiles that the deflecting mechanic is extremely viable. Fights are very quick and decisive, yes, but you're fighting enemies that largely remain stationary while you reliably can and should enter bullet time. I just find it really hard-pressed to say it's developed without accessibility in mind.

[TequilaSe'lai]

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

Are you playing on a steam deck by chance? I've heard of a few visibility issues on the deck but I just checked to refresh my memory on PC and I genuinely can't see any blurring. I especially can't really see how the background would end up that way, since they incorporate parallax. There's also a haze to distinguish it from the foreground even at a standstill. Enemies stand out quite well, there's not that much blue in the game aside from their uniforms. Bullets have bright white trails and are slow enough projectiles that the deflecting mechanic is extremely viable. Fights are very quick and decisive, yes, but you're fighting enemies that largely remain stationary while you reliably can and should enter bullet time. I just find it really hard-pressed to say it's developed without accessibility in mind.

No I'm playing on PC (with dualshock controller). It may have to do with my monitor's refresh rate or smth,

But with how busy the background is (and the multiple layers in the foreground), it's more of the issue of it being difficult to focus on the different assets moving at once (like bullets or what position I'm currently in mid-rotation). Maybe "blurry" isn't the right word to describe it, but it all just looks too "busy", even when slowed in bullet time.

When all this is combined with an unusual, unintuitive control scheme, it really challenges my own hand-eye coordination in a way that's more frustrating than engaging IMO. Plus the aesthetic uses very jagged, hand-drawn outlines on most of the assets including the enemies, which makes it even harder to for my eyes to track them.

And the thing about accessibility issues is they're not always immediately apparent when a dev creates a game. They can only be realized and further refined when people express their different levels of ability and experiences with a interacting game's mechanics

[Fray]

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

And the thing about accessibility issues is

Sometimes they're made up, just like all of my accommodation issues at work

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

It may have to do with my monitor's refresh rate or smth

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, generally it's nice to confirm this before you place your blame on the game itself.

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

unusual, unintuitive control scheme, it really challenges my own hand-eye coordination in a way that's more frustrating than engaging IMO.

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

(with dualshock controller)

Maybe you should also give the other input method a try before writing the whole thing off.
I know you're a fan of other -vanias but genuinely ask yourself, is it the game's fault or is this just not the one for me? I'm not trying to be mean here but I'm guessing it's the latter considering you're asking for

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

Hollow Knight or the majority of other metroidvanias

But that's just not what this game is trying to be.

[TequilaSe'lai]

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

And the thing about accessibility issues is

Sometimes they're made up, just like all of my accommodation issues at work

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

It may have to do with my monitor's refresh rate or smth

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, generally it's nice to confirm this before you place your blame on the game itself.

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

unusual, unintuitive control scheme, it really challenges my own hand-eye coordination in a way that's more frustrating than engaging IMO.

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

(with dualshock controller)

Maybe you should also give the other input method a try before writing the whole thing off.
I know you're a fan of other -vanias but genuinely ask yourself, is it the game's fault or is this just not the one for me? I'm not trying to be mean here but I'm guessing it's the latter considering you're asking for

TequilaSe'lai eredeti hozzászólása:

Hollow Knight or the majority of other metroidvanias

But that's just not what this game is trying to be.

I'm not writing the game off completely. Just offering constructive criticism of how certain game mechanic choices are inherently alienating and inaccessible, due to their much higher learning curve and currently unrefined controls. The devs aren't obligated to make a game in any specific way, but it's a missed opportunity to cast a wider net IMO

It's currently designed in such a way that it turns off more people who would be otherwise interested in such a game for it's other positive attributes, like it's art, writing and lore.

There's a reason why most -vanias don't deviate too much from the tried and true method of navigation: because that's what most people are familiar with and can readily pick up due to the intuitive control schemes. If you try to deviate too much from that, the bar is much higher for it to work right. I think it's fair to say there's work to be done in the current state of the game, and that some of the current control schemes don't meet that mark for a lot of people.

This isn't a bug report so I don't have to "confirm" anything, or abide by whatever unspoken rules there are about whats arbitrarily "considered nice" before posting. I'm perfectly in my right to post anecdotes about my experiences on my setup in an open forum like the discussion pages

[Fray]

Just as users of the open forums have a right to disagree with the validity of your criticisms

[TequilaSe'lai]

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

Just as users of the open forums have a right to disagree with the validity of your criticisms :marten_sip:

No arguments here, but it does say a lot about those who resort to snark and passive-aggressiveness instead of genuine engagement, because they see everything as an opportunity to dunk by default

[CrazyDragy]

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

Just as users of the open forums have a right to disagree with the validity of your criticisms :marten_sip:

Being a contrarian just for the sake of it isn't a virtue.
OP offered good insight how the intricate art and the game-play mechanics clash. Some of us don't process visual information as easily and the design ethos doesn't compliment the core game-play perfectly.

Another thing I noticed in the demo which wasn't great was when the camera moves... it always lags behind considerably, so if you go fast you can even move out of frame and then suddenly run into enemies that were impossible to see.
I also didn't understand having to buy the maps for places you explored to know the layout. And they didn't even mark where stuff is. Although they are pretty cheap, it still felt sort of needlessly "extra" when compared to other games

[TequilaSe'lai]

CrazyDragy eredeti hozzászólása:

Fray eredeti hozzászólása:

Just as users of the open forums have a right to disagree with the validity of your criticisms :marten_sip:

Being a contrarian just for the sake of it isn't a virtue.
OP offered good insight how the intricate art and the game-play mechanics clash. Some of us don't process visual information as easily and the design ethos doesn't compliment the core game-play perfectly.

Another thing I noticed in the demo which wasn't great was when the camera moves... it always lags behind considerably, so if you go fast you can even move out of frame and then suddenly run into enemies that were impossible to see.
I also didn't understand having to buy the maps for places you explored to know the layout. And they didn't even mark where stuff is. Although they are pretty cheap, it still felt sort of needlessly "extra" when compared to other games

Thanks for summarizing the issues I ran into in a way that's much more succinct. This is what I was getting at when trying to describe the issue I had with in terms of processing visual information and how the core gameplay and design ethos clashes in this instance. Also I think you nailed it by identifying the camera lag as being one of the main culprits that worsens this issue

[Fray]

CrazyDragy eredeti hozzászólása:

Being a contrarian just for the sake of it isn't a virtue.

I'm a contrarian for enjoying the game and its art direction?
As I have stated prior, there are plenty of decisions made that make the visuals quite clear. I genuinely feel blind in many games but Laika is certainly not one of them. Just to triple check, I went ahead and reinstalled since I have not looked at the game in a few months and maybe a fresh set of eyes would be less accustomed. Speaking of,

CrazyDragy eredeti hozzászólása:

Another thing I noticed in the demo which wasn't great was when the camera moves... it always lags behind considerably, so if you go fast you can even move out of frame and then suddenly run into enemies that were impossible to see.

Is, at least in the full game, demonstrably untrue. Especially to imply there is a consistency. The camera pans in the direction you move and your position on screen will remain locked, except in wide angle, locked screen environments (typically, as a matter of fact, to show all the enemies present so you're NOT suddenly surprised) or when the camera pans to show off environment or level detail in some more exploratory, non-combat areas. I do however believe this is more common in the locations the demo takes place in and becomes less prevalent afterwards. Still, I can't find a way to make it "lag behind considerably." Even with a certain late-game item. My complaint with the camera would more-so be on how inconsistent the zoom levels can be in some areas, with many rapid changes. Laika is not a flawless game so there is no need to make up issues.

But what do I know. I'm only speaking as a contrarian (in the sense that I have finished the game.)