I can't believe this! Sonic 3 actually sucks! T.T

[Alfon]

I had this game on pc since the 90s. I loved it. Sure, I was never able to actually finish the game, I wasn't able to end any level but green hills and, with a lot of effort, the aqua zone. After that, it was hellish. But for some reason, in my version, the stages were already unlocked until the mushroom forest (I think). So it was like having a demo version. I could try different levels.

I thought the game was incredible. It made me ignore Mario world. The speed, the momentum, the battles... when eggman burns the forest, and we just kept playing. Cool moments.

When I tried Sonic origins I heard that it was easier, something about the time being unlimited and having infinite lives made me think "this is the time! I am gonna do this for real now!"

...And I started great. I finished one stage after the other... and it was the carnival when I started noticing... that the game had problems. The carnival had no momentum. It stopped me from running almost all the time. The mechanics were freaking weird, jumping to make the platform go down, but tails falling after me ruining the attempt... I had to press up and down, my god, I tried for 15 minutes until noticing. With a timer, I would have lost so many times there. I can't believe so many people did it back in the day.

I am in the ice cave now and it's the same thing. Almost no racing, just gimmicks, every time a different stupid gimmick. THey actually try to trick me to die crushed under a platform so the rings don't matter. Why the hell do you let me get rings then? Just remove them directly! I wouldn't feel tricked then.

I am really hating the experience, is there really fun to find here still? What the hell happened? Why the game changed from being crazy fun to be like HELL on earth???? It really feels like it's suddenly a different game, a game that really, really sucks. And I don't understand why.

I used to tell my friends how great sonic 3 was. Was I really THAT wrong? Did they screw it on this version? What the hell happened?

[Alfon]

I used wrong names for the levels. What I called mushroom forest is the way I called it as a kid for whatever reason. I think the real name is marble garden or something alike. I probably made a lot more mistakes. "Carnival" (wtf?) was "Carnaval night".

[Sifer2]

Well for starters back in the day Sonic wasn't just "racing". There were lot's of platforming levels too where your meant to go slower to avoid spikes/pits. As you learn the levels, and get better at them you can do them faster. It seems like you got used to Modern Sonic games where it's mostly just hold down the stick, and Burst Dash through enemies where going fast essentially takes no skill what so ever. It's all cinematic flash with no substance. That's why I like the Adventure games since you could still feel a bit of that old school design where going fast was a reward for learning the level. After that though it started getting increasingly just mash button to go fast.

Anyway Carnival Night zone is pretty much 3's "pinball" level. Similar to Casino Night in 2. You will get bounced around, and the goal is bounce yourself in the right direction. And Ice Cap isn't even a hard level at all. Yeah there might be one or two cheap crush traps in it. Nothing compared to Metropolis zone in 2 which had loads of em. And if you make it that far trust me Sandopolis Act 2 will show you what a hard level looks like. Ultimately the game doesn't suck though just because your impatient. Hell they removed lives anyway specifically to cater to the modern impatient audience, and your still complaining?

[Alfon]

Originally posted by Sifer2:

Well for starters back in the day Sonic wasn't just "racing". There were lot's of platforming levels too where your meant to go slower to avoid spikes/pits. As you learn the levels, and get better at them you can do them faster. It seems like you got used to Modern Sonic games where it's mostly just hold down the stick, and Burst Dash through enemies where going fast essentially takes no skill what so ever. It's all cinematic flash with no substance. That's why I like the Adventure games since you could still feel a bit of that old school design where going fast was a reward for learning the level. After that though it started getting increasingly just mash button to go fast.

Anyway Carnival Night zone is pretty much 3's "pinball" level. Similar to Casino Night in 2. You will get bounced around, and the goal is bounce yourself in the right direction. And Ice Cap isn't even a hard level at all. Yeah there might be one or two cheap crush traps in it. Nothing compared to Metropolis zone in 2 which had loads of em. And if you make it that far trust me Sandopolis Act 2 will show you what a hard level looks like. Ultimately the game doesn't suck though just because your impatient. Hell they removed lives anyway specifically to cater to the modern impatient audience, and your still complaining?

Have you played sonic mania? Even sonic cd. The best areas of sonic 2 (which I am playing right now), are all about racing. Going fast was the motto for these games.

I find your answer dismissive, I think there are mechanics that you can't pretend are bad only for modern audiences, like the so called, barrel of death on carnival night.

If your point is that sonic 3 was a huge game and that sonic was never about going fast, that it's just a modern thing, I don't get you. It feels very far from my experience with sonic. I was too young to finish Sonic 1, 2 and 3, probably, but I have played almost everything else.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Alfon:

Have you played sonic mania? Even sonic cd. The best areas of sonic 2 (which I am playing right now), are all about racing. Going fast was the motto for these games.

Sonic's gimmick was always speed, but even Sonic 1 had a balance between speed-based levels and methodical, exploration-based levels. For the sequel, Sega's American team created Sonic 2 which focused more on maintaining a sense of speed throughout most levels, and the Japanese team created Sonic CD, which went in the other direction and focused MUCH more on exploration. 3 & Knuckles followed 2's example and the 2D Sonic games from that point mostly focused on speed.

Most Sonic fans seem to prefer the speed-based games, but it's really a matter of preference. Sonic CD is my favorite, for instance, specifically because of it's slower-paced gameplay and time-travelling gimmick. I also love Sonic 3 and the things you hated about it were not issues at all for me. Different people like different things.

[Alfon]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by Alfon:

Have you played sonic mania? Even sonic cd. The best areas of sonic 2 (which I am playing right now), are all about racing. Going fast was the motto for these games.

Sonic's gimmick was always speed, but even Sonic 1 had a balance between speed-based levels and methodical, exploration-based levels. For the sequel, Sega's American team created Sonic 2 which focused more on maintaining a sense of speed throughout most levels, and the Japanese team created Sonic CD, which went in the other direction and focused MUCH more on exploration. 3 & Knuckles followed 2's example and the 2D Sonic games from that point mostly focused on speed.

Most Sonic fans seem to prefer the speed-based games, but it's really a matter of preference. Sonic CD is my favorite, for instance, specifically because of it's slower-paced gameplay and time-travelling gimmick. I also love Sonic 3 and the things you hated about it were not issues at all for me. Different people like different things.

I agree that prefering more technical mechanics (I think they are called like that in english?) or speed is a matter of preference, that's why people prefer mario or kirby over sonic or the other way around.

But the mechanics chosen in sonic 3 and knuckles are... they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥... like, seriously. They don't stop the player to do something interesting or fun, they just waste his time. Sonic cd feels so much better than sonic 3 and knuckles.

I have been reading these days and apparently, Sonic 3 and Sonic and knuckles were two different games that could be combined, they had different people working on different levels, which is why I feel everything is so disjointed.

And to artificially increase the time of play, they used tricks, traps, to "catch" the player, like arcade games used to do, in later stages. And it shows. After the ice stage I feel like the game is manipulating me to get me killed, I am getting paranoid of my shadow.

It feels wrong, it feels like those platform games made with flash in the 2000s that just tried to kill the player no matter what he tried. You know the kind of things that people sometimes do with Mario maker. Which may be fun, I suppose, for a short experience.

But this feel so wrong here. Maybe because the early levels in sonic 3 and knuckles are so much fun, they are so amazing. They had an incredible formula and they dropped it through the window for some reason. I am gonna look for some documentary or something about sonic 3 because despite you saying it's ok, there's clearly something terribly wrong with this game. If you have a link or something, I would thank you.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Alfon:

But the mechanics chosen in sonic 3 and knuckles are... they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥... like, seriously. They don't stop the player to do something interesting or fun, they just waste his time. Sonic cd feels so much better than sonic 3 and knuckles.

Well that's the beauty of opinions: Everyone's entitled to their own. I love Sonic 3 & Knuckles (I played them at release with the original lock-on technology) and don't share your gripes at all. I guess they do enough right for me to either not notice or not care about the things that bug you.

Originally posted by Alfon:

It feels wrong, it feels like those platform games made with flash in the 2000s that just tried to kill the player no matter what he tried. You know the kind of things that people sometimes do with Mario maker. Which may be fun, I suppose, for a short experience.

See, this wasn't my experience at all. The end of 3 & Knuckles never seemed particularly difficult or unfair to me. Maybe that's because I played them enough in my youth to be ready for what they throw at me, but I always found the elemental shields and the easier bonus stages (facilitating unlocking Super Sonic) make 3 & K more accessible than 1 or 2.

Originally posted by Alfon:

I am gonna look for some documentary or something about sonic 3 because despite you saying it's ok, there's clearly something terribly wrong with this game.

... for you! And that's OK! It's totally fine if you don't like those games. For ANY reason. But that certainly doesn't imply there is something inherently "wrong" with them.

[Alfon]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by Alfon:

But the mechanics chosen in sonic 3 and knuckles are... they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥... like, seriously. They don't stop the player to do something interesting or fun, they just waste his time. Sonic cd feels so much better than sonic 3 and knuckles.

Well that's the beauty of opinions: Everyone's entitled to their own. I love Sonic 3 & Knuckles (I played them at release with the original lock-on technology) and don't share your gripes at all. I guess they do enough right for me to either not notice or not care about the things that bug you.

Originally posted by Alfon:

It feels wrong, it feels like those platform games made with flash in the 2000s that just tried to kill the player no matter what he tried. You know the kind of things that people sometimes do with Mario maker. Which may be fun, I suppose, for a short experience.

See, this wasn't my experience at all. The end of 3 & Knuckles never seemed particularly difficult or unfair to me. Maybe that's because I played them enough in my youth to be ready for what they throw at me, but I always found the elemental shields and the easier bonus stages (facilitating unlocking Super Sonic) make 3 & K more accessible than 1 or 2.

Originally posted by Alfon:

I am gonna look for some documentary or something about sonic 3 because despite you saying it's ok, there's clearly something terribly wrong with this game.

... for you! And that's OK! It's totally fine if you don't like those games. For ANY reason. But that certainly doesn't imply there is something inherently "wrong" with them.

1. How can you not notice/not care when they stop you on your feet and place deadly traps left and right, that don't respect the rings rule. That's nostalgia talking there, in my opinion, maybe you played it fully before developing the critical abilities, like I did with mario land for example.

2. Sonic 3 and knuckles never felt particularly difficult? First it's not about difficulty, difficulty is great, challenge is great. Cuphead? Masterpiece. It's about being tricky, it's about cheating the player, about bad game design. Do you know what this one gimmick one level but ill managed makes me think of? Balan wonderworld. Seriously. When I knew it was Yuji Naka behind both, everything fit into place. And Balan is crazy easy, but it's this thing of adding mechanics for the sake of them, not because they are fun.

Also, despite everything I said, if you never noticed that Sonic 3 and knuckles is a hard game, we can't have this conversation. That's way beyond credibility, I can't take you seriously, you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with me. Even if you beat it easily (which I don't believe, I rather believe that you don't remember how hard it was, just because of the terrible game mechanics added in the last portion of the game that make you waste time in a timer driven game), you had to notice the game was hard. What kind of reference frame did you have? How many times you have to die to consider a game hard? 10 times is easy stuff for you? We are so far away.

3. I found some old articles. Apparently the development of the game was crazy, a lot of hubris, egos, fighting each other. They rushed the game, releasing it in two halfs, not because of good design choices, the executives had to meed their time frames. Apparently sega was in civil war, as usually, and executives drained resources from the game, forced changes in the people who worked there and it's a freaking miracle that everything went as well as it did.

In my opinion, people back in the day were fascinated with the technology achievements, the one game game in two cartridges gimmick, and I suspect that most players never finished the game (like me, I have been for 30 years saying how amazing Sonic 3 and knuckles was).

And now my suspicion is that nostalgy speaks louder. Most people who play these games now already played them many years ago (again, like me).

Sonic 3 and knuckles starts incredibly well but then the game starts showing what is, by refined development standards, bad game design choices. I am not even blaming the developers, apparently they had it very hard. And I don't have a great opinion about Yuji Naka as a director or game designer but that guy had huge technical knowledge, the gimmicks may be dumb but they are interesting from a technical point of view.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Alfon:

1. How can you not notice/not care when they stop you on your feet and place deadly traps left and right, that don't respect the rings rule.

Being squished is an instant KO, it's been that way since Sonic 1. It also happens more often in Sonic 1. Heck, you could even get squished by rushing between 2 surfaces moving AWAY from each other! Also, in the original Sonic you could land on spikes and lose your rings, but bounce right on top of spikes and die (something I believe they fixed in later ports). Unfair deaths were not just always a part of Sonic, but arguably a part of 8 and 16-bit platformers in general.

Originally posted by Alfon:

2. Sonic 3 and knuckles never felt particularly difficult? First it's not about difficulty, difficulty is great, challenge is great. Cuphead? Masterpiece. It's about being tricky, it's about cheating the player, about bad game design.

I never felt cheated playing Sonic 3 & K, and I think their design is great. Great controls, great mechanics, great visuals, great level design. There's a reason the classic Sonic games hold a special place in my heart, and Sonic 3 & K are part of that reason.

Originally posted by Alfon:

Even if you beat it easily (which I don't believe, I rather believe that you don't remember how hard it was

I played through all the games at release. I played through them all with the Genesis Collection on Steam. I played through them all again at the end of last year when I got Sonic Origins. And that's not counting all the other times I played some of them individually just because I felt like it. It's not a question of "not remembering". I know these games well and play them a lot because I love them and consider them great games.

Originally posted by Alfon:

How many times you have to die to consider a game hard? 10 times is easy stuff for you?

I will not die 10 times if I play through Sonic 3 & K. It's really not that hard. Especially, again, if you make use of the elemental shields and get all the Chaos Emeralds (the bonus stages are arguably the easiest in the series). Heck, the version on Origins is even easier, as you don't have to worry about running out of lives and you can re-try the bonus levels if you fail, plus you get to see more of the levels since they're now in widescreen.

Originally posted by Alfon:

In my opinion, people back in the day were fascinated with the technology achievements, the one game game in two cartridges gimmick, and I suspect that most players never finished the game (like me, I have been for 30 years saying how amazing Sonic 3 and knuckles was).

I played it with my buddies and we beat it repeatedly.

Originally posted by Alfon:

Sonic 3 and knuckles starts incredibly well but then the game starts showing what is, by refined development standards, bad game design choices.

Sure, to you.
And again, that's totally fine! You are very much allowed to not like Sonic 3 & K. Not everybody is going to like the same things, nor should they. I will say, though, I find it odd how important it seems to be to you to portray these games as inherently bad. That's not how games work. It's certainly not how it works for games that have been well-loved for decades and continue to be well-loved. I assure you: People that enjoy Sonic 3 & K are not wrong. They legitimately enjoy the games on their own merits, because they are a lot of fun.

[NBOX21]

I will agree with the barrel being a massive roadblock for the average player. Getting past it is super easy, but only once you know what you're actually supposed to do. The game does not communicate how the barrels work in any way, nor does it hint at the possibility of using the directions to raise or lower them while standing on them.

Everything else though was perfectly fine from my experience. The game teaches you through gameplay how everything works and doesn't take you very long to get the hang of how the various level gimmicks work, with each level getting the most out of them. Sandopolis Zone Act 2 in particular had a great level concept of needing to keep the pyramid lit to prevent the ghosts from damaging you when it gets too dark, forcing you to keep moving as quickly as possible to each light switch. It made for a very memorable set piece, and there's a very good reason Mania brought it back for its Oil Ocean Zone.

I would also disagree with S3&K getting worse in the second half - quite the contrary. I find the Knuckles half of the game to be far better than the Sonic half, with Carnival Night being the lowest point of the game in terms of quality. But when it comes to some of the best zones in the game, Flying Battery, Sandopolis and Death Egg were definitely highlights for me, along with a pretty tough but fair final boss that gave the entire game and its story a great sendoff.

How you felt about 3&K is actually how I feel about CD, except that game IMO doesn't just falter with its level gimmicks, but also its level design where it wants to be more exploration focused while still being structured like a traditional Sonic level and the two styles clash making for levels that weren't nearly as enjoyable as the more focused experiences of the Mega Drive games. The final boss in particular was so pathetically easy compared to S1-3&K (it's the only one that gives you rings, and there's a good reason the MD games didn't do this) and gives it a very underwhelming lasting impression for me.

[Sifer2]

Alfon your digging up old articles trying to figure out why things were the way they were. A lot of us myself included were actually there. I owned the game, and played the heck out of it as a kid. The game was designed literally to just to try to one up the incredibly popular Sonic 2. It ended up being too ambitious, and would not fit on one game cart so they had to break it up into two. The only real negative effect of this is the difficulty of Ice Cap/Launch Base is a bit higher than zones that come after it like Mushroom Hill. Because Launch Base was literally the final zone of Sonic 3 so it was supposed to be hard. Where as Mushroom Hill was the starting zone of Sonic & Knuckles. They did actually make those two zones easier by adding more power ups, and less spikes I think, and originally removed the whole final boss of Launch Base but Origins restored it.

As I said before the Sonic series was not originally entirely about going fast. In the old days actual platforming was the most popular game genre. Like 80% of games coming out were some kind of platformer. Even if you play Sonic 2 your still going to notice you can't just hold down right on the D-Pad, and never stop. And Sonic 1+CD are far more platformers than they are "racing" games. Even the Adventure games made you slow down until you learned the level then you could often find hidden routes that went faster.

[Trypetide]

Originally posted by Sifer2:

It ended up being too ambitious, and would not fit on one game cart so they had to break it up into two.

Gotta take more into account the fact that having Sonic 3 released in the state it was released was mostly a "time" factor, thanks to McDonald's enforcing their contract with Sega (obligated to match the release date for the Sonic toys offered through their Happy Meals). If not for this, I'm pretty sure they would have taken more time to make only one big *ss game. In retrospect, most people kind of like the "2 in 1" cartdridge concept and the tiny variations it offers depending on what game(s) you play. But at the time, it was hella expensive too, so to speak...

Originally posted by Alfon:

Have you played sonic mania? Even sonic cd. The best areas of sonic 2 (which I am playing right now), are all about racing. Going fast was the motto for these games.

Despite Sonic 2 not being ALL about speed, acknowledged by yourself by saying "the best areas", meaning "those where I don't have to stop or do much to advance quickly".

Sonic MD games were always marketed about the speed mostly as a commercial shtick (by mostly showing loops and tubes) only because it was showing off what speed and graphical capabilities the Mega Drive had compared to Nintendo's. There is obviously some speed factor in those games, mind you, but the biggest factor before that is MOMENTUM.

You don't need to go at mach 5 all the time to use it, and apart from trying your hardest to SPEEDRUN the game, you don't need to go the quickest and easiest road either "just because". And the game won't let you anyway.

Heck, the goal of getting Chaos Emeralds was always tied to your whole performance as a platformer player, not just your speed. Getting rings, going through bonus stages, trying to win them all... And finally getting the real endings. Since the first game.

Sonic 3 &/or Knuckles brought something different to the table compared to the first 2 games in how to get to them: more exploration. Mega Rings are accessible wherever they are placed in the levels, and apart from a little bit of pressure to find them all in each level within the 10 min limit if you don't want to lose one life, it's up to you to take your time and do the deed. There's even some leeway in having more Mega Rings than necessary in both iterations, just in case you missed one or two along the way.

I don't think anybody here is judging you on your skills, it's more about how you've got a little misconception about Sonic's gameplay on Mega Drive and missing the "you also need to take your time sometimes" part of the gameplay loop in those games.

In Sonic 3, you can die a lot, win tons of rings, do the different bonus stages and get back lifes and continues, and even get all Chaos Emeralds... in less than an hour. By far it is the easiest game in the series on MD.

Overall, it's mostly due to knowing by heart those games anyway (like most plateformer games) so even people that sucks at it will go through them mostly with ease after a while. (But I talked to many people finding all Mario games to be easier to play and finish than any Sonic MD games so... )


The biggest culprit to people thinking it's all about speed, after the ads of course, are mostly the first level(s) of all those games: they're made with the biggest fluidity so that you can learn to look around, get accustomed to the different layouts and to learn all about momentum. I'm sure many would have preferred to get all stages the same, but that's another debate altogether.

But maybe if you try playing for a few days Sonic 1 or 2 on Master System, you'll get how easier the MD are in the grand scheme of things! (they're fun in a way but please, don't )