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Non sequitur. There are TONS of niche games on Steam.
Yet again, your examples are of games that wouldn't compete with each other.
No, I think unlisting a game that wasn't selling to help out a game being marketed is not unethical.
You are mistaken. Cyberpunk got good reviews at release because people LIKED it at release, bugs and all. I know because I am one of them. You are dismissing well-written, nuanced and informative reviews outright because they don't share YOUR opinion. That's nonsense.
I just checked Metacritic and Unleashed has a significantly higher Metascore than '06.
I've already shown you how it's not. In fact, I consider it absurd that you believe you can make definitive statements about the "business models" of huge corporations.
... ideologically, based on your personal values, tastes and preferences.
I can not stress enough that nobody has been wronged. I can not stress enough how little actual negative effect the delisting has had AT ALL, and it's been over 9 months. I gotta give it to you, you're definitely committed to complaining on behalf of theoretical people who don't exist.
They CAN be, but we are not entitled to it. Studios are allowed to to WHATEVER they want with their games, and that absolutely includes making decisions YOU may not like.
2.) Nope. It doesn't fly. It's worth pointing out there were compilations released and the originals are still on here. While Devil May Cry 1 and 2 never were on Steam, both the HD collection and 3 are still on Steam. Same with Devil May Cry 4 and its special edition. If these hurt the sales of the collections don't you think Capcom would have came to the same conclusion as Sega by now and delisted the originals?
3.) He's right. Supply and demand don't work the same with digital goods because Digital means you have an unlimited supply as you don't have to deal with discs/cartridges, manuals, cases, paper for the box art, and shelf space.
4.) And that's where the ethics part comes into play. Just because you're able to do something doesn't mean it's ethical to do it. It looks bad on Sega when they're doing something like that when other companies such as Nintendo and Capcom aren't.
And it's worth pointing out that the circumstances are always different.
Yes, I understood what he said. But we're not entitled to digital goods being available indefinitely. We never were.
It really doesn't. You not liking a decision doesn't make it unethical.
2.) Not when compared to the Virtual console and Wii All-Stars/Dream Collection games. Very similar I also pointed out others. This could also apply to all HD collections on other systems such as Sly, Ratchet & Clank, Silent Hill, Devil May Cry, etc. There's been plenty or re-releases.
3.) And I've given you valid reasons for that kind of thing. Hint: Sonic isn't a license, nor do these games have any questionable content. Delisting to charge double isn't a valid reason.
4.) Having earned an A in an ethics course, it's not about whether or not I'd like it. It's based on what I've learned. Note, I didn't say letting people know about Denuvo before launch and using it isn't unethical.
5.) Read your quote again. You said there was a reason to get the upgrade.
6.) Do you know what GOG originally was short for? Good Old Games. If old games are as niche as you make them out be, there's no point in Sonic Origins and GOG wouldn't be around today.
7.) Hate to break it to you, but Super Mario All Stars was a compilation of all 4 Super Mario Bros. Games in one. If anything, the Virtual Console versions would have hurt them at a total of $21. Kirby's Dream Collection included a few Virtual console games as well such as Kirby's Adventure, Kirby Super Star, Kirby's Dream Land 3, and Kirby 64, which which total $31. Cheaper than what Dream collection would go for, but at least it had Dream Land 1 and 2 for Game Boy.
8.) Right, so by your logic, Capcom should delist Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition and Resident Evil 4 (2005). I'm not buying your attempts to try to defend Sega's unethical business strategies.
Yes, even then.
You are not the arbiter of what makes a reason "valid".
In this case, it very much is.
I did. That doesn't mean that those reasons apply to everyone. There are certainly people who would be just as happy playing the older versions for cheaper.
Non sequitur (again).
That's not my logic.
There are tons of recently released games that are very, very niche and are made with a very specific audience in mind. Whereas there are plenty of retro games that appeal to the mainstream.
According to IGN, Sonic 2006 got a 4.8/10, while Unleashed (PS3/360) got 4.5/10, and no, I'm not making it up either. Gamespot's review of the game was even more harsh against it, giving it a 3.5/10 even though their 2006 review scored higher than that.
In other words, stuff like this is why journalists are seen as a complete joke nowadays.
Let's also not forget that the Switch version of Sonic Colours Ultimate also had seizure inducing visuals when that launched.
I noticed you left out the rest of my argument to try and have a point here. Had you included my entire response, your argument would fall apart like a house of cards, if it didn't already.
Those Wii collections were limited time releases and were never meant to replace the originals that were available on Virtual Console at the time. Once those limited prints were out of stock, the original versions would continue to me the most accessible way to buying them once more, at least until the Wii Shop Channel's closure in 2019. Also, the Wii release of All Stars was literally just a SNES game on a disc, so one could argue it's even more lazy and worthless than Origins was.
As for the rest of your examples, the original versions were never available digitally; they were only released physically and on older consoles which the newer ones are unable to run, so having HD ports or remasters were essential to running them on the newer systems. I can't just take my PS2 discs and run them on the PS3, meaning the HD ports replace the original versions by default.
Not sure about DMC3, but the RE4 remake is a completely different game from the 2005 original to the point where you can play both versions and get completely different experiences. It's not really the "enhancement" you think it is.
2.) I broke down the price of the compilations. Wii discs went for about $50 at the time. The virtual console versions would put Nintendo in the same spot as Sega when you think about it.
3.) There was one other one I didn't mention, but it's not relevant to Sonic Origins and I don't consider a good reason to delist a game so much as to make code related to the game public domain so the game could live on. However, I can't think of anything else. Delisting to charge double because you too many other companies delisting older versions of their games to the newer ones outside of sports games, which Sonic isn't either. Heck, even EA has the classic versions of Star Wars Battle Front 1 and 2 available for sale along side the newer versions, which is saying something as the new version of Star Wars Battle Front 2 could have used all the help it could get given the disaster of a launch it had. Granted, you could claim that's different, but I'd argue Battle Front 2 would have needed it more if anything, so don't go playing that marketing strategy excuse.
4.) Wrong. If that were my reason for claiming something was unethical, I would have claimed the same about the lack of Knuckles Chaotix. I didn't. I pointed out it would add value, but that's about it when it comes to that.
5.) And that's why I brought up Super Mario All-Stars on Wii and the virtual console versions. Super Mario All Stars was a compilation of Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2: The Lost Levels, Super Mario Bros. 2/USA, and Super Mario Bros. 3. Same with Devil May Cry 4 and its Special Edition. There is a cheaper option, but apparently they didn't hurt sales enough of those to warrant delisting the cheaper versions.
6.) You're the one who claimed old games were niche and not selling well. If that's the case, there was no harm in leaving the original up because the new version wouldn't have to compete with them as it offers more.
7.) Oh but it is. If you wanted to play Devil May Cry 3, Capcom could have forced you to buy the entire collection just for that one game like Sega's doing. Unlike Devil May Cry 1 and 2, 3 did get a PC release and one could make the case that it might hurt the HD collection's sales. Same with the Special Edition of DMC 4 as one could claim that Virgil might not be enough to entice players to get the Special Edition over the regular version. Resident Evil 4 remake didn't really too look different in terms of gameplay based on what I've seen of the chainsaw demo.
2.) Fair point. I'll give you that.
3.) True, but depending on which system you had, you could play some PS2 games on PS3s. I find it odd that Sony did odd Sony removed the chip as it was only $28 based on price tear down. I guess you could make the case Sony's done worse than Sega in this area, but I don't think too many others actually are.
4.) DMC 3 is the same. I've them both. Partially because I wanted 1 and 2 and partially because controller support for the original is a bit more confusing than it is for the newer version. As for Resident Evil 4, from what I've seen it's more like the situation with the Gamecube version of RE1 compared to the PlayStation 1 version based on what I've seen from the Chainsaw demo. (For the record, the only note worthy changes between those version for the base versions of the game in terms of gameplay is Lisa and the Crimson Heads.) There's some differences such as Leon's dialog changing and the game starting in the early morning compared to before as well as the option to save the dog being removed. Not exactly huge differences in my opinion, though. That's why I brought it up as it just looked like a director's cut version with upgraded visuals.
OK, let's take a look at the Genesis Collection. It contains over 50 titles, including (until recently) the most popular and well-loved games in Sega's history. It also contains several excellent and highly-lauded RPGs such as Phantasy Star IV, Shining in the Darkness, and Shining Force. It's got treasures from Treasure such as Dynamite Headdy and the spectacular Gunstar Heroes. It's got underappreciated gems such as Ristar and Beyond Oasis. It's got iconic titles such as the Streets of Rage, Vectorman and Shinobi games. It's got exceptional presentation, with a fully-rendered 90s bedroom. It's got save states and rewind, of course, but also VR support and online multiplayer, as well as mod support. During the 13 years it's been available, it's been on sale many times, often at a fraction of its original cost. In terms of titles, features, selection and value it simply doesn't get any better than this. You will find not a retro title with more mass appeal that Genesis Collection.
How many reviews does the Genesis Collection have, after 13 years? 6,480. How many reviews does, say, Cyberpunk 2077 have, after less than 3 years? 527,402. It got over 5000 reviews in the last 30 days alone. How about Hogwarts Legacy, which came out a month and a half ago? 138,040 reviews. 20,424 reviews in the last 30 days (that's more than triple the total reviews accumulated in THIRTEEN YEARS for the Genesis Collection).
Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE retro gaming. I'll buy even bad retro games because I love being able to jump into the past and relive my youth on Steam. But I am in the minority. The vast, vast majority of casual Steam users simply don't care about old, obsolete games. The numbers make that pretty clear.
These are different INDIVIDUAL reviews by different INDIVIDUAL people! Do you seriously still not grasp how subjective video games are? As someone who loves the terrible Sonic Adventure games, I would think you of all people would understand that certain games appeal more to certain people than others. The fact that not ALL reviews for Unleashed are better than ALL reviews for '06 doesn't mean critic's reviews are flawed, it means you fundamentally misunderstand what reviews even are.
Changes nothing.
The world doesn't operate according to the limits of your imagination.
I could and do.
Non sequitur.
For the fifth time, the Genesis Collection wasn't selling but the marketing for Origins could very well have led to people getting the GC versions instead.
It's almost like the circumstances are ALWAYS different and it's foolish to attempt to present any two distinct scenarios as equivalent.
2.) And it makes Sega look worse than EA, who as EA did put the originals up for sale on Steam and GOG to offer the option to play the originals after the Battle Front 2 fiasco. When you consider EA was trying to push a Star Wars casino on gamers, the originals would have hurt that, so not having them around would have been better. They'd get the money from the original game and then even more from their... what did they call them again... oh... that's right... "Surprise Mechanics." That's more than the $20 extra Sega's making from Origins. So before you claim it's different with this one, you really should think a bit more about that. If you want to take into consideration the amount of time between the releases, Sega still has some more time before they're branded as worse than EA on this front.
3.) You only respond that way because it hurts your claim. I'll accept your apology.
4.) And you said it yourself. Origins is a compilation of enhanced versions. If you think that Origins can't coexist with those installments, you might as well be saying it does jack squat to stand out compared to the originals.
5.) I see you missed my point. By delisting the individual installments, you'd still have to buy Origins if you want to get only one of them that was delisted. This is why I bring up Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition and the Devil May Cry HD Collection. If you only wanted DMC3 on Steam and Capcom delisted it, your only option would be the HD Collection, which makes it a fair comparison. I mean, what if you moved over from the Wii U to PC gaming recently and since you had all the Genesis Sonic games on it, you only wanted Sonic CD or you moved from the 3DS and only wanted Sonic 3 & Knuckles because you had the 3D versions of 1 and 2? Sega took away not just one, not 2, but four separate individual titles away from the Steam store to push a Denuvo infested compilation of ports for $40 regardless of which installments you want. Let's face it, the eshop on those consoles is a memory, so it might be the reason people move on from those.
6.) The NES, SNES and Genesis classics tell a different story. In fact, I wonder if the Genesis Classic Model 1 might have been a contributing factor to what you're claiming. Alex Kidd, Altered Beast, Beyond Oasis, Columns, Comix Zone, Dynamite Heady, Echo the Dolphin, Eternal Champions, Golden Axe, Gunstar Heroes, Kid Chameleon, Land Stalker, Light Crusader, Phantasy Star 4, Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, Shining Force, Shinobi 3, Sonic Spinball, Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Space Harrier 2, Streets of Rage 2, Super Fantasy Zone, Thunder Force 3?, Toe Jam & Earl, Vector Man, Virtua Fighter 2, and Wonder Boy in Monster World. I'm seeing a lot of overlap here. Then there's some you wouldn't be able to get on Steam unless they were remakes. World of Illusion, Road Rash 2, Strider, Monster World 4, Alisia Dragoon, Darius, Castle of Illusion, and the Genesis version of Earthworm Jim. (DOS version of EWJ is on GOG and probably on Steam, but tweaking a DOSbox configuration file to get your ideal settings isn't fun.) I also have to wonder about used game prices and how much the ones that could be bought on the second hand market would go for at the time. I know you might argue that the overlap ones would be cheaper, but the ones that aren't on Steam might be more expensive to buy second hand at the time, so the Genesis mini could have been the better deal with the other games from the collection that aren't on it such as Shining in the Darkness, Streets of Rage 1 and 3, Sonic 3, Sonic 3D Blast, etc. just filling the gap. It's something to think about.
7.) There are some other things to consider. I'd say having these original versions on the Steam market is good for Sega. I mean, the $3.50 they get from each one on Steam is much better than they'd get from people who buy the games used seeking the original versions. It's likely the delisting may result in scalpers going hog wild on these games. I suspect this is going to be more true for Sonic 1 and 2 now that 3D eshop is down. Whether or now they'll go past that $40 is something I'm not sure about. Some people still prefer the original hardware and with the right tools, the versions you could get from Steam before Sega delisted them would allow you to do that. They already do that with some other games that didn't see a digital release. Just look up Go! Go! Hypergrind when you get a chance to see what I mean.
I didn't say that. I said that I can understand why Sega made the call they did.
They do not.
You're welcome to argue that, but Sega obviously didn't see it that way and I understand why. I also don't thinlk Sega is even a little bit concerned about the second-hand cartridge market cutting into their bottom line.
A.) EA's antics got them into legal trouble to the point that they claimed they didn't agree with the interpretation of the law and they rebranded loot boxes to "surprise mechanics" to try to dance around the gambling accusations. However, they eventually caved and re-released the original untainted versions, so if you wanted to play Battlefront 1 or 2, you didn't have to play a version with gambling. In terms of ethics, you could say they are ethical for relisting the originals to offer people the choice to have to worry about becoming addicted to spending their money on those "surprise mechanics."
Likewise, there are certain things Origins has going for it and certain things the original versions have going for them. I'm actually a bit disappointed in the Steam version of Sonic CD's save system compared to the Windows 95/Sega CD/Gems Collection version. Likewise, the Genesis/Mega Drive collection have things such as mods, save states, and portability going for them, while Origins has the ability to play other characters that weren't in these games originally and there's also the lost Sonic 2 Hidden Palace Zone. Both have their reasons to coexist.
But if you'd rather look at things from a perspective that's purely about profit and not even consider ethics, there is this perspective to see that makes EA look better than Sega...
B.) The same argument you play for delisting the original Sonic games would also apply to the Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2. Even if you ignore the ethics of getting kids addicted to gambling, which you seem not to care about ethics, EA's losing out on money by putting those versions on Steam and GOG because there's no "surprise mechanics" for people to spend their money on.
2.) I've pointed out why they could coexist and examples related to how it looks bad on Sega's part compared to other companies and why it's a bad move on their part. This just leaves me to believe Sega has no faith in this compilation.
3.) They were restocked multiple times. The exception to the rule would be the PlayStation classic, which went down to $20 at one point. Then again, Sony dropped the ball on it in multiple ways.
4.) If you only need one entry, it might be cheaper to buy these games used right now. Heck, you might even be able to get the Windows 95 versions of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and Sonic CD for cheap and play them with patches. Hooray for Sega getting jack squat for not selling them individually on Steam, I guess.