Stop claiming the Katana is balanced

[AlsoIMainYoshi]

Whenever the topic of Sable and her Katana is brought up here, I always see the same sentiment echoed over and over again - and I'm sorry, but I don't think you guys are hearing yourselves.

The counterplay to any weapon, let alone a STARTING WEAPON, should not be to immediately dump cards you may not even have at the start of each and every single round.
Yes, you can use speed cards to keep your distance. Yes, you can use bear trap and throwables to chip her down. But even once those cards are gone, you STILL have to chew through the absurd amount of damage she can block with little to no consequence on her part.

And it's a very lofty assumption to make that you'll have 100% uptime on cards that can "counter" (make Sable/Katana even slightly bearable to fight against by putting them on a barely level playing field with you) the Katana. Used up your entire hand last round just to deal with Sable? You better ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hope the cards you pull this round are sufficient enough to deal with her katana this time.
Well in that case, just always have a deck handy with cards specifically made to counter the katana, just in case you ever run into Sable, right? Surely it's not too much to ask everyone to always be prepared just because they might get matched with a Sable.. right? ..yeah, absolutely not. I don't think the entire meta revolving around the mere existence of a weapon this blatantly overpowered is healthy for this game in the slightest.

Katana ain't balanced. It ain't as simple as "learning the matchup". And the advice being given to "counter" it is flat out mental. C'mon y'all, think about this for a sec.

Don't get me wrong - I've only been playing for a few days now and I love this game to bits already. Even still, Sable just sucks the fun out of any match in her (and the katana's) current state. I realize there's already probably a nerf in the pipeline as it's been all but confirmed by the devs, I just wanted to vent some frustrations. Love y'all, drink water

EDIT: still not balanced, the 5 damage nerf is fine but also mostly inconsequential and doesn't even begin to address the real problem with the weapon

[Aggrogoat]

If they just tweak the numbers, you will still be angry. Changing the numbers isn't going to solve much, unless it's put into the grave. Her method of approach will stay the same. Even if they change how many bullets are required to empty the magazine of the blade, a Sable player can abuse more corners to close the distance. And once she's close, it's original Sable again, even if she takes one more swing to kill. I get that you're frustrated, and passionate, but what you want is a rework.

I just believe there is just a lot more wrong with the game from a card standpoint at the moment. There needs to be focus towards balancing and reining in nearly unwinnable round start combos. Card profaner was, to be frank, a mistake. In 2v2, being able to health down someone thrice in a single round near the beginning just sucks. Potato & parley is a truly stupid combo that guarantees heavy (100) damage on all characters except Lars. Profaning or having a second player play small magazines puts pretty much all mags to 1 bullet.

There are max level people running around in external comms like Discord running these kinds of decks that win rounds for them just right after it begins. Being able to synergize and communicate what you have with each other makes debuffs DEADLY. And that, imo, is what's making this game less fun to get into for new people.

[nana]

I agree that Katana is very frustrating and honestly unfun to play agaisnt (especially as someone with lag who can only do 1v1s), and I'm not totally agaisnt adjusting their numbers a bit to mitigate the issue somewhat, at least as a temporary measure. If you end up with no good/weapon cards in your hand, you only have 2 shots with the regular Boira to deal damage to them before having to reload the Boira, granted you don't miss any of the 10 shots to force the Katana to reload first. It's really punishing.

I also understand that "skill issue" is a thing, but it really doesn't feel good or fun to miss a bomb that was your only way to reliably deal damage to the Katana user in that round and end up having to accept your death. Not to mention sometimes the Katana user can just counter your buffs with their own debuffs, returning you to neutral.

In fact, I personally think Katana as a weapon (and by extension, Sable) is unbalanceable - it will either always be really unfun to play agaisnt, or really unfun to play as. Either too strong or too weak by simply adjusting numbers. What you (and I) want is a rework.

But as Aggressive Goat has pointed out, there's /many/ more serious issues with the game at the moment, and I feel it would be healthier for the game to first tackle on the more glaring ones related to card combos and progression before majorly reworking a weapon/character, if even. Also, Card Profaner was a huge mistake.

It will be easier to understand what to do with the Katana once the game is in a healthier state, and as much as I hate going into a match agaisnt Sables, I wouldn't want the character stomped into the ground with nerfs as a knee-jerk reaction.

[Janikut]

I can help with bringing up all cards that help against sable

punch r, bomb, stickybomb, bomb belt, ninja log, move slower, move faster, tinman, golden boira, brasshopper, shotgun, albatross, ak-47, poison bullets, landmine, steeltrap, big head with any weaponcard, empty mag, smaller mag, energy drink, self destruct, double jump, no jump, swap weapons, rubber bullets,

Ask whatever i will elaborate how any of these cards is best used against sables❤

[Zedalb]

Originally posted by Janikut:

I can help with bringing up all cards that help against sable

punch r, bomb, stickybomb, bomb belt, ninja log, move slower, move faster, tinman, golden boira, brasshopper, shotgun, albatross, ak-47, poison bullets, landmine, steeltrap, big head with any weaponcard, empty mag, smaller mag, energy drink, self destruct, double jump, no jump, swap weapons, rubber bullets,

Ask whatever i will elaborate how any of these cards is best used against sables❤

You entirely missed the point of the post you listed 25 cards. I shouldn't have to have a deck dedicated to defeating one of like 12 characters when I can't pick my deck to counter them.

That doesn't work I don't know who I will be fighting.

So yes there are cards that help, many of those would be counter by the sable player still, because it's worth noting, you made an entire deck just to counter the sword, they still have a deck. Your own suggestion is a losing proposition and *Not* what OP is talking about here.

Sable can have an entire deck to make sure the sword works and countering many of the cards you just listed.

And if my deck only has 10 of those, I could go all 3 rounds and get none of those and just lose.

If the advice is center your entire playstyle around 10% of players, your advising me to go into 90% of games at a huge disadvantage.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Zedalb:

Originally posted by Janikut:

I can help with bringing up all cards that help against sable

punch r, bomb, stickybomb, bomb belt, ninja log, move slower, move faster, tinman, golden boira, brasshopper, shotgun, albatross, ak-47, poison bullets, landmine, steeltrap, big head with any weaponcard, empty mag, smaller mag, energy drink, self destruct, double jump, no jump, swap weapons, rubber bullets,

Ask whatever i will elaborate how any of these cards is best used against sables❤

You entirely missed the point of the post you listed 25 cards. I shouldn't have to have a deck dedicated to defeating one of like 12 characters when I can't pick my deck to counter them.

That doesn't work I don't know who I will be fighting.

So yes there are cards that help, many of those would be counter by the sable player still, because it's worth noting, you made an entire deck just to counter the sword, they still have a deck. Your own suggestion is a losing proposition and *Not* what OP is talking about here.

Sable can have an entire deck to make sure the sword works and countering many of the cards you just listed.

And if my deck only has 10 of those, I could go all 3 rounds and get none of those and just lose.

If the advice is center your entire playstyle around 10% of players, your advising me to go into 90% of games at a huge disadvantage.

All those cards also are pretty useful to have in general and against many other characters, they just counter sable even more than they counter other characters since sable is very one dimensional. I bring along most of those without even considering sable.

[Janikut]

Originally posted by Zedalb:

Originally posted by Janikut:

I can help with bringing up all cards that help against sable

punch r, bomb, stickybomb, bomb belt, ninja log, move slower, move faster, tinman, golden boira, brasshopper, shotgun, albatross, ak-47, poison bullets, landmine, steeltrap, big head with any weaponcard, empty mag, smaller mag, energy drink, self destruct, double jump, no jump, swap weapons, rubber bullets,

Ask whatever i will elaborate how any of these cards is best used against sables❤

You entirely missed the point of the post you listed 25 cards. I shouldn't have to have a deck dedicated to defeating one of like 12 characters when I can't pick my deck to counter them.

That doesn't work I don't know who I will be fighting.

So yes there are cards that help, many of those would be counter by the sable player still, because it's worth noting, you made an entire deck just to counter the sword, they still have a deck. Your own suggestion is a losing proposition and *Not* what OP is talking about here.

Sable can have an entire deck to make sure the sword works and countering many of the cards you just listed.

And if my deck only has 10 of those, I could go all 3 rounds and get none of those and just lose.

If the advice is center your entire playstyle around 10% of players, your advising me to go into 90% of games at a huge disadvantage.

Mu point was that every good deck already had like 6 or 7 sable counter cards. All of these cards are insanely good to play against anyone. And out of 10 card drawing at least 4 of them is very common. Bombs are mega meta against anyone and they are even better against sable, just saty still at range, press e and shoot upward, thats all you need to do to win any sable with any amouny of buff/debuff cards

[AlsoIMainYoshi]

Originally posted by Aggressive Goat:

If they just tweak the numbers, you will still be angry. Changing the numbers isn't going to solve much, unless it's put into the grave. Her method of approach will stay the same. Even if they change how many bullets are required to empty the magazine of the blade, a Sable player can abuse more corners to close the distance. And once she's close, it's original Sable again, even if she takes one more swing to kill. I get that you're frustrated, and passionate, but what you want is a rework.

I just believe there is just a lot more wrong with the game from a card standpoint at the moment. There needs to be focus towards balancing and reining in nearly unwinnable round start combos. Card profaner was, to be frank, a mistake. In 2v2, being able to health down someone thrice in a single round near the beginning just sucks. Potato & parley is a truly stupid combo that guarantees heavy (100) damage on all characters except Lars. Profaning or having a second player play small magazines puts pretty much all mags to 1 bullet.

I understand I was a bit heated with my wording, but I do realize there’s more pressing matters than the Katana for the devs to tackle right now. Vampire bullets probably don’t have a place in the game balance-wise. Barbed cards shouldn’t be as punishing as it currently is. Bombs and explosives in general do way too much damage unless you’re a Lars main. I’m not advocating for the devs to focus only on Sable and Katana, that’s unreasonable, I’m just saying that certain people seem to think Katana is in a perfectly fine state just because cards exist that can help counter the weapon. Like Zedalb says above, I shouldn’t need a whole deck tailored to countering a weapon I might not even run into, just because the possibility exists.

However, I will concur with y’all that this isn’t exactly a numbers issue - the whole darned thing needs a reassessment and a rework. Tuning damage would either do too little or too much, and lowering the number of blocks is to miss the point entirely. So how should they do that? I have NO IDEA. But, for the time being at least, I do have faith that Katana and/or Sable will eventually be fun to fight and to use. I don’t think that just because it’s broken right now doesn’t mean it deserves to be permanently garbage, god no.

[AlsoIMainYoshi]

Originally posted by Janikut:

Originally posted by Zedalb:

You entirely missed the point of the post you listed 25 cards. I shouldn't have to have a deck dedicated to defeating one of like 12 characters when I can't pick my deck to counter them.

That doesn't work I don't know who I will be fighting.

So yes there are cards that help, many of those would be counter by the sable player still, because it's worth noting, you made an entire deck just to counter the sword, they still have a deck. Your own suggestion is a losing proposition and *Not* what OP is talking about here.

Sable can have an entire deck to make sure the sword works and countering many of the cards you just listed.

And if my deck only has 10 of those, I could go all 3 rounds and get none of those and just lose.

If the advice is center your entire playstyle around 10% of players, your advising me to go into 90% of games at a huge disadvantage.

Mu point was that every good deck already had like 6 or 7 sable counter cards. All of these cards are insanely good to play against anyone. And out of 10 card drawing at least 4 of them is very common. Bombs are mega meta against anyone and they are even better against sable, just saty still at range, press e and shoot upward, thats all you need to do to win any sable with any amouny of buff/debuff cards

Even still, the problem is that it’s left entirely left up to chance at that point whether you pull the cards that can counter Sable or not, assuming you have a deck made to suit your character and playstyle specifically.

And yeah, bombs work, sure, but right now the damage they do is super ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and, like you say, counter basically everything assuming you can hit the blast. Once they’re inevitably brought down to size, them’s gonna be some tough beans fighting Sable without an instakill card handy.

[Janikut]

Dunno imo you never need to build you deck to counter sable, just drawing four of them, and if you have 10 cards already in deck that are good but also very good agaisnt sable its ez to win. The only reason people are complaining about sable is one of 3 of things. They are annoyed that they have to change their playstyle to counter sabble or they have bad card usage against sable or they dont have enough game knowlege to counter sable

[Janikut]

Originally posted by Janikut:

I can help with bringing up all cards that help against sable

punch r, bomb, stickybomb, bomb belt, ninja log, move slower, move faster, tinman, golden boira, brasshopper, shotgun, albatross, ak-47, poison bullets, landmine, steeltrap, big head with any weaponcard, empty mag, smaller mag, energy drink, self destruct, double jump, no jump, swap weapons, rubber bullets,

Ask whatever i will elaborate how any of these cards is best used against sables❤

I assure you every deck in in this game has about 7-10 of these cards thats more than enought to countersable every round

[Graslu00]

The Katana is balanced. :)

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Graslu00:

The Katana is balanced. :)

I was honestly surprised to see so many people wanting to nerf it. I'd considered Sable and the katana to be rather underpowered compared to being able to kite with a gun. Between getting a few shots in in each swing made, being able to hit from the sides and rear, and all the cards available that are a strong counter, it tends to be one of Sable's best bets for a deck is to bring along a lot of weapons cards just to swap from katana as needed or a weapon swap to suddenly give it to the enemy and then use a counter card of their own.

Like really, has anyone else noticed things like shotgun on DJ Newton? Thing's insane. Aside from of course the other big contenders in regards to balance.

[Graslu00]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by Graslu00:

The Katana is balanced. :)

I was honestly surprised to see so many people wanting to nerf it. I'd considered Sable and the katana to be rather underpowered compared to being able to kite with a gun. Between getting a few shots in in each swing made, being able to hit from the sides and rear, and all the cards available that are a strong counter, it tends to be one of Sable's best bets for a deck is to bring along a lot of weapons cards just to swap from katana as needed or a weapon swap to suddenly give it to the enemy and then use a counter card of their own.

Like really, has anyone else noticed things like shotgun on DJ Newton? Thing's insane. Aside from of course the other big contenders in regards to balance.

Laser Stevie is also crazy broken if you have good aim. Every character has their pros and cons, I don't think anyone is crazy overpowered as they stand right now. Lars can be annoying with all the explosion resistance but there are many ways around it too.

[Janikut]

So true, theres much mote to complain how much op stevie is, never dmg falloff, no recoil, more ammo, more dmg that just absurd. And with him you can just play long sightlines and easily dominate

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Janikut:

So true, theres much mote to complain how much op stevie is, never dmg falloff, no recoil, more ammo, more dmg that just absurd. And with him you can just play long sightlines and easily dominate

Yeah, I'd forgotten his name, but in regards to the characters that get a special weapon every round, he's the best by a good margin. Though I'd say Lars is perhaps the one that's the strongest at the moment, negating 10 cards that are all extremely good just by existing is brutal, especially while also allowing you to be far more aggressive with bombs and be rewarded.