ATV-40/STV-40; why do these guns exist?

[Elegant Caveman]

Is there some mistake with their displayed stats?

I haven't field-tested them, but just looking at their stats, they're straight-up worse versions of the FRD.

You can kind of try to argue that the STV-40 (22k, unlocked at rep 500) is a somewhat-interesting option for someone who doesn't have an FRD (40k, unlocked at rep 600) but can't afford it and/or they want it a bit earlier, but by the time you reach a rep of even 500 with the green army, 40k or getting an extra 100 rep should be mostly meaningless.

Even weirder, the ATV version costs 31k, has a RPM of 225, and is unlocked at rep 550, but the STV version costs 22k, has an RPM of 240, and is unlocked at rep 500. Why is the version you unlock earlier superior in every way?

It would also make more sense to have two versions if they used different ammunition, but they don't. But even then, why do they have different names? The BB 19 Moose has two versions (identical except for ammo type they use), and only one name.

Though I guess this is a "new thing", since there's also the Grusa 1 and Grusa 4 (also identical, save for different types of ammo). The BB 19 Moose should probably get a name update, then.

I guess the only major difference is when you unlock them, so if you -really- want to buy a DMR from the green army ASAP, that might be a reason... kind of... more of an excuse, really.

Ignoring stats (which are very close between the *TV-40 and the FRD), here are the differences (prices with Charisma 10) again:

Unlocked at rep 500, 22 320₽, 240 RPM, 4.2kg: STV-40
Unlocked at rep 550, 31 820₽, 225 RPM, 4.2kg: ATV-40
Unlocked at rep 600, 40 470₽, 240 RPM, 4.7kg: FRD

I guess it's kind of nice the *TV-40 are a tiny bit lighter, if you're carrying them to sell? Not that weight matters for equipped weapons.

The whole situation is just too strange... feels like they're just there by mistake/as placeholders.

If you really want a DMR that bad, you're probably better off just sticking with an MKM until you can get an FRD. The Batko MKM is something else to consider in between.

Similar price to FRD, almost double the RPM. Different ammo type, though, so you won't be getting AP, but you do get HP, which the FRD lacks. Depends what you're hunting...

EDIT: I went looking for what weapon(s) use the new ammo type, and haven't found anything.

I guess the ATV-40 is meant to use the new 12.7x55mm ammunition. That would explain everything.

Pity only one weapon uses it (or at least will, when things get fixed). Nice ammo, unimpressive weapon.

[AllMindControl]

Atv is automatic version of stv thats why the names differ. They are versions of the real life avt and svt-40

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by alliedmindcontrol420:

Atv is automatic version of stv thats why the names differ. They are versions of the real life avt and svt-40

Then shouldn't the automatic one have a higher fire rate?

[H4CK3R MAN]

They exist because the dev copies guns from Escape From Tarkov

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by H4CK3R MAN:

They exist because the dev copies guns from Escape From Tarkov

Did you read the thread, or just the title?

The point is "why do they exist as they are".

Have the guns, just make their stats make sense.

My point is that unless I'm missing something, their stats make no sense.

[H4CK3R MAN]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

Originally posted by H4CK3R MAN:

They exist because the dev copies guns from Escape From Tarkov

Did you read the thread, or just the title?

The point is "why do they exist as they are".

Have the guns, just make their stats make sense.

My point is that unless I'm missing something, their stats make no sense.

I might only have read the title :]

[Lack of Stuff]

I only tried the AVT-40 but the primary benefit over the Dragunov is that it has a very generous range bracket. Essentially it is both mid-long optimal.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

I only tried the AVT-40 but the primary benefit over the Dragunov is that it has a very generous range bracket. Essentially it is both mid-long optimal.

Was waiting to find one of each to test them, but never did, and forgot about this thread, but I'd forgotten about debug mode.

A new thread on the topic reminded me about this, and I remembered debug mode this time, so I looked into it:

the FRD and STV-40 have the same range brackets (at least at short range; I didn't test max range), and the ATV-40 does indeed have a slight short range advantage.

That's still not enough to explain things as far as I'm concerned, though... still strange guns. There's just too much similarity between the three.

[Lack of Stuff]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the prices. Both guns should be largely army surplus or vintage and while the AVT did have a fairly fast fully automatic fire mode it was extremely difficult to control and broke the gun often.

My guess is they are more like early to early-mid game weapons that were added in without proper tuning.

[Icevenom]

So according to you they should stop adding guns? Unless they have a very clearly defined niche/space?

Not saying you're wrong.. just a take i would never agree with ever in this lifetime.

More is better even if they are just "re-skin" sidegrades.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

added in without proper tuning.

That's what it feels like to me.

Originally posted by Icevenom:

So according to you they should stop adding guns? Unless they have a very clearly defined niche/space?

Not saying you're wrong.. just a take i would never agree with ever in this lifetime.

More is better even if they are just "re-skin" sidegrades.

Agree to disagree, I guess. Somewhat.

You're taking it to an extreme...

I'm not saying completely stop adding guns unless they're ultra-specialized, but from a game design perspective, these two new models are especially sloppy.

I'd just want new guns to make at least a bit more sense (in terms of gameplay, I mean, not realism... I don't know and don't care about "real guns").

If they were roughly the same price and roughly available at the same time, I might agree, but not as things are.

If they were truly equivalent, it would basically just come down to different skins. But as it is, it's just confusing for nothing.

And in this case, it's barely even a re-skin, more just of a re-name; they all look exceedingly similar.

The STV-40 is nearly identical to the FRD in performance, except it costs almost half, and you can get it considerably earlier, without having to join the Green Army.

That basically makes the FRD completely pointless. That's bad design.

Something as simple as having it do less damage would have been enough to make more sense in comparison... but then it competes with the MKM.

Redundant weapons take resources (time, energy, thought, whatever) to create. I'd rather those resources went to something else... like a weapon that made a modicum of sense, at bare minimum. Something that offered a different gameplay experience, even if just slightly.

The only benefit the FRD might have is I think it's more customizable. I haven't tested that yet, but it's possible a fully-upgraded FRD is considerably better than a fully-upgraded STV-40.

[Icevenom]

Well, in my opinion what you are trying to achieve is impossible, and getting more impossible by the minute.
Every new entry will be a further nail in the coffin for the structure you are trying to establish/maintain.
I expect a lot more entries so my brain simply discarded the need for this balancing act.

I am sure however that if you provide your very pertinent analysis to the developer on Discord or something (they don't seem to be active on Steam), they will give you their reasoning and "numbers" behind their design decision. Maybe you will agree with them, leave unsatisfied, or your suggestions will even be applied in the game.

To put things completely into perspective, i myself am not exactly happy with the devs extreme lenience into Russian produced firearms.. but if, with time, all they add is 50 more russian weapons, i am still not saying no.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Icevenom:

Well, in my opinion what you are trying to achieve is impossible, and getting more impossible by the minute.
Every new entry will be a further nail in the coffin for the structure you are trying to establish/maintain.
I expect a lot more entries so my brain simply discarded the need for this balancing act.

I am sure however that if you provide your very pertinent analysis to the developer on Discord or something (they don't seem to be active on Steam), they will give you their reasoning and "numbers" behind their design decision. Maybe you will agree with them, leave unsatisfied, or your suggestions will even be applied in the game.

I'm not really trying to "achieve" anything.

I saw the guns, they made no sense, so I made a post about it in case I was missing some piece of info that would make them make sense.

Seems I'm not, so I got my answer.

Beyond that, I simply offered a theory ("wrong ammo type") as to what might have led to this situation as some food for thought.

Easy enough for me to ignore them.

I was just originally curious in case there was some aspect about them I had missed which might make me interested in using them, but there isn't.

Originally posted by Icevenom:

To put things completely into perspective, i myself am not exactly happy with the devs extreme lenience into Russian produced firearms.. but if, with time, all they add is 50 more russian weapons, i am still not saying no.

What does "lenience into Russian produced firearms" even mean?

[Icevenom]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

Originally posted by Icevenom:

To put things completely into perspective, i myself am not exactly happy with the devs extreme lenience into Russian produced firearms.. but if, with time, all they add is 50 more russian weapons, i am still not saying no.

What does "lenience into Russian produced firearms" even mean?

I've used the wrong word i guess. Sorry - second language.
Leaning into? Preference for.

It's obvious the dev is a big Tarkov fan right? But come on even Tarkov itself has some very iconic guns from arround the world missing here. Anyway not a big problem as already mentioned. You said you are not a big gun guy rl so i won't bore you further.

I wouldn't give up if i were you, i don't see why the dev wouldn't change numbers arround if you reach an agreement. I'd be super happy too if everything has a clear niche, but when you reach 20 different AR platforms etc.. it;s bound to become impossible to differentiate them right?

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Icevenom:

I've used the wrong word i guess. Sorry - second language.
Leaning into? Preference for.

Ah, yeah, that makes a lot more sense, thanks. :)

Originally posted by Icevenom:

It's obvious the dev is a big Tarkov fan right? But come on even Tarkov itself has some very iconic guns from arround the world missing here.

I've heard there's a lot of inspiration from Tarkov in this game, but I haven't played that, so can't really comment on it.

What I have played, though, is S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and there's also obviously a huge inspiration from that as well. Maybe even more? I don't know.

This game's structure and setting (minus the "extraction" part, which is from Tarkov) basically makes it very close to a top-down/2D S.T.A.L.K.E.R..

Made by Ukrainians and set around Chernobyl, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. has all sorts of guns: like in ZERO Sievert, they're mixed between Warsaw Pact/Soviet and NATO weapons.

The storyline ("accident" at a nuclear power plant, mutants, anomalies, "hunters" trying to make it rich, the army trying to maintain control, scientists trying to figure out what's happening, etc.) is very similar between the two games, at least on a surface level.

Given this, and the fake name of the region ZERO Sievert is set in (Zakov), it's a logical assumption that this game's setting is somewhere in a fictitious Eastern Bloc country, so it makes sense that the "local" guns are Russian.

And then you have the Crimson Corporation that comes in (likely American), bringing with them NATO weapons.

It all makes sense in context, especially when we take into account the game's roots.

It's not just "lol random Russian guns".

Originally posted by Icevenom:

Anyway not a big problem as already mentioned. You said you are not a big gun guy rl so i won't bore you further.

But yeah, I'm not a gun guy, so I'm just looking at this in context of/comparison to S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and, more importantly, gameplay/game balance/game design.

It just seemed strange to me to see three guns that were so extremely similar, especially considering their price disparity, and the fact that one of them was pointlessly locked behind joining a faction.

Originally posted by Icevenom:

I wouldn't give up if i were you, i don't see why the dev wouldn't change numbers arround if you reach an agreement. I'd be super happy too if everything has a clear niche, but when you reach 20 different AR platforms etc.. it;s bound to become impossible to differentiate them right?

I don't care that much, and I don't do Discord.

If the dev was here, and he replied to this thread, I wouldn't mind giving the issue more serious thought to discuss it, but it's not something I'm going to go look for.

It's simply not worth the mental energy to me.

I'll simply consider them a mistake and go on with my day.

I'm not a big fan of DMRs (Designated Marksman Rifles) anyway, preferring actual snipers, so they're not a weapon type I care much about.