Ammo types need a balance pass

[deviousity]

I have found that higher penetration ammo is better in every situation. Right now there's no reason to downgrade your ammo, to use a specific type against a specific enemy. I tried the regular ammo, hollow points, and subsonic, but nothing kills as fast as AP, regardless of the target. Wolves, boars, and rats clearly have no armor. Ghouls too, probably. Blinks look like they have a hard shell. Bigs look (and are) quite beefy, but don't appear to have tough scales or bony plates. They're just big. I feel like changes could be made to the targets, rather than the ammo. I don't know what kind of damage reduction wildlife and mutants have, so I'm just theory crafting, but I'd suggest that if boars (for example) have a certain percentage of damage reduction, they should lose that and their health should be increased by an equal proportion. You wouldn't need any penetration to damage them, but you'd need to do more damage. There's a case to be made for overpenetration dealing reduced damage (AP rounds punch right through without the target absorbing much of the round's kinetic energy), but without seeing the code I can't imagine how you'd implement a change like that. If you didn't need penetration for these critters (or if it was actually counterproductive), you would benefit from the extra damage of hollow points or the reduced recoil of subsonics.

[Whiskiz]

it's funny because mutant health was nerfed in 0.40 and doubly so for hunter difficulty - that's probably why we both only use AP ammo (otherwise just base ammo) with the other ammo's being mostly pointless, and is basically the issue you've unwittingly come across

was apparently to make mutant combat easier close range, alot of people kept getting ambushed by alot of mutants and complained about them (one person even showed footage of trying to fight spiders at night, with nothing more than a simple torch, in a wide open space and complaining they were too mobile and OP, demanding that they be nerfed in the next version. for real lmao)

otherwise wanting melee options, or longer reflex times on them when they hit you etc instead of just making sure they never get to you in the first place - which after the forest is quite a bit easier (added to the fact that after early game you get gear that reduces melee damage by alot)

so now some things are redundant because of it, just like thirst/hunger and needs refill apparently nerfed for beginner players and no longer a mechanic for everybody else, unless adjusted back a bit higher yourself in the slider settings (though they don't go much higher, one was nerfed 8x with only option to increase 2x)

thank god they at least didn't relent on the new gunplay system though, otherwise i'm sorry but the casual gamers be driving this game backwards in its entirety, just like most of the rest of the entire gaming industry

from Stalker to CoD. truly make it the simple 2D cartoony shooter that it looks like on the surface

Edit: thanks for the reminder on that, my next playthrough maybe next major update i might increase mutant health along with the usual hunger/thirst and needs refill cost

Edit 2: maybe if the trees in the forest more reliably became transparent around the mouse cursor, there wouldn't be as many mutant ambushes out of nowhere

[⛧CyberDemonEmpress⛧]

TL:DR: Mad cause bad.

[Whiskiz]

the extent of the insightful wisdom of a casual player - on perfect and full display haha

sums everything up nicely, thanks for the assist

[deviousity]

Oh I agree with you 100%, catering to the masses of filthy casuals (edit: I say this as a filthy casual) snubs the most loyal fans. I'm fine with a game being hard, but I think it's a better mechanic if it's hard because you're doing it wrong, and different gear having different situational uses is one way to accomplish this. What's the best weapon? There shouldn't be just one answer.

A long time ago, I was playing System Shock 2 and I encountered a nurse. Lovely creatures... things. Well, it was fairly early game so my weapons were pretty basic. It's my job to worry, then she shrieked and fired lasers at me before charging me. I switched to my shotgun and started blasting. It didn't end well. Next time I was not surprised. I opened the door ready to shoot. Dumped a whole mag into her but it just made her mad. I sighed and looked over my inventory. Grenades but no launcher... Do I try slugging her with a big wrench? Wait, what are those..? AP rounds? Hmm. Went in again with AP rounds loaded and took her down in 3 shots. That was satisfying. TLDR, select the right tool for the job. Having more tools is better.

Back to ZS, I wholeheartedly believe that the different ammo types should each have a best case scenario for their use. Hollow points have low penetration but could have bonus damage for unarmored targets, subsonic has lower penetration but could have conditional bonus penetration and damage when undetected, "normal" bullets are nothing special but generally useful, and AP has high penetration but could do less against unarmored.

Melee enemies are very mobile, I think excessively so. But how else would they kill you? If there was something to slow them down, like the delay between their attacks made longer by giving them attack animations (which could be used for level scaling of melee enemies, with more advanced ones having quicker attacks), coupled with changes to the ammo types, I wouldn't mind seeing their health nerf rolled back. You should be able to one shot a rat with hollow points 100%, maybe a wolf too, but probably not a ghoul or anything bigger. Rats would have a really slow animation where they wind up and pounce at you, with travel time through the air during which they can't change direction. Wolves would have a bite and shake animation that takes half to three quarters of a second, during which they can't move (but neither can you). Ghouls, I'd put a bit of recovery time at the end of their attack, about a third of a second. Blinks I wouldn't change at all. Bigs, honestly I think they're too easy. They literally just stand still while I empty a magazine on them, and they're dead before I'm empty. Never been killed by one. Can't recall even being hurt by one. The length of time they can be staggered should be capped. Anyway, just throwing some ideas out there.

[deviousity]

Originally posted by ⛧CyberDemonEmpress⛧:

TL:DR: Mad cause bad.

Was this directed at me? I'm actually not bad, I'm doing quite well and having a lot of fun. I'm just disappointed that AP ammo is best in slot and the other types don't even have situational uses.

[Whiskiz]

my "back in my day" cane shaking aside aha:

Originally posted by deviousity:

I'm fine with a game being hard, but I think it's a better mechanic if it's hard because you're doing it wrong

agreed. good mentality to have, try to get better at a game instead of trying to bring it down to your level

Originally posted by deviousity:

Melee enemies are very mobile, I think excessively so. But how else would they kill you?

exactly, sure we can add melee or other things to nerf them, but then they just become a non threat entirely. you aren't supposed to easily deal with them if they get to you because they shouldn't be getting to you in the first place, and it's a dangerous world out there with dangerous creatures

Originally posted by deviousity:

If there was something to slow them down, like the delay between their attacks made longer by giving them attack animations (which could be used for level scaling of melee enemies, with more advanced ones having quicker attacks), coupled with changes to the ammo types, I wouldn't mind seeing their health nerf rolled back

yeah could be cool, although easier for them to just nerf health. think i saw somewhere it's just one dev?

but there has to be a better way to do things in general, than just nerfing things

nerf mutant health, nerf hunger and thirst, nerf needs refill, remove chemical anomaly radiation entirely, etc

would be nice if maybe mutants were a bit beefier again, maybe with a bit more reaction time to compensate and then more than just AP ammo asap became a thing

i think the mad cause bad thing was aimed at me. nothing else they can say really, certainly never admit to any failings on their end : P

[deviousity]

Originally posted by Whiskiz:

Originally posted by deviousity:

Melee enemies are very mobile, I think excessively so. But how else would they kill you?

exactly, sure we can add melee or other things to nerf them, but then they just become a non threat entirely. you aren't supposed to easily deal with them if they get to you because they shouldn't be getting to you in the first place, and it's a dangerous world out there with dangerous creatures

How terrifying would wolves be if that howl you heard meant they were surrounding you and closing in? When one grabs you, the others will grab you too, and you're just stuck there while they rip you to shreds... No I don't think they should be a non-threat, you should really not want to find yourself in the middle of a pack. It should be near certain death. But one wolf? One should not be able to kill you as easily as five. The strength they lack individually should be made up for in numbers. Ghouls already do this. Blinks, on the other hand, look like something equipped to reduce you to a pile of entrails if it gets close. They're fine how they are, with their darting and slashing, but nothing else should be able to move like that. Certainly not a rat.

Edit: Blinks can have more health. They could be a little scarier.