Weapon balance

[ChielScape]

Pistol rounds are weaker than rifle rounds by about a factor of 2. Fair enough, this isn't anything one would be shocked to hear. But the stack size and cost of the ammo doesn't reflect this. To incentivize people to use these guns, I feel it should be easier to acquire and store a larger amount of ammo, in a similar ratio to the damage difference with rifle rounds, because you're going to expend that much more ammunition as a result.

I just have no reason to use a UMP45 or a Vector when I am better off just bringing the AKM that I've been using since raid 6.

Likewise, the SCAR-H offers nothing over the AKM other than a smaller magazine and more costly ammunition. 33 damage vs 29 really doesn't make a difference in any practical scenario. It's 2 shots to kill either way.

Alternatively, maybe the AKM / 7.62x39 is just a little bit too strong relative to larger and smaller calibers?

I want to like the other cool guns but the AKM just does it all.

Looking forward to difficulty sliders, which I hear are coming, to adjust overall time to kill but the *relative* performance of guns needs some tweaking IMO.

Anyone else share relative balance concerns but perhaps from a different angle?

[Valhalla Awaits]

Advantage to the scar is that the ammo has better armor penetration, which is useless when fighting wolves/boars/spiders/bandits. But is the difference between life and death when fighting heavily armored enemies which 7.62 often harmlessly bounces off of.

Partially agree with the pistol ammo though, not enough of an advantage to use them over rifles. Pistol ammo/guns do fire more rounds and faster than rifles, and can do so more accurately with smgs. The ammo is lighter weight, and is ideal for fighting creatures but useless against enemies with armor. But the ammo isn't really much cheaper. So yeah a rifle beats them in almost every way. But thats also the case in real life, a rifle is better than a pistol/smg in almost every way other than concealability and weight, and cost of ammo. (for non exotic rounds anyway)

[Noutaja]

Originally posted by Valhalla Awaits:

But is the difference between life and death when fighting heavily armored enemies which 7.62 often harmlessly bounces off of.

Uwotm8? The akm spits out enough bullets to down anything before it can sneeze. By the time the comparison between akm and scar is even remotely relevant, you can easily afford infinite ap rounds for the ak and piss them away full auto if needed.

[b0nehead]

Yep pistols are useless. The vector is alright you can ammo dump and destroy anything before it can destroy you, although i feel that would be better for pvp. Since less TTK.

VSS and the VAL are similar concept to the subs.

Definitely the big ammo guns are the winners here for every day raids.

[Asherogar]

Yea, 7.62x39 or AKM do feel overtuned. Completed my entire second run with it as a main weapon and it's way too good in current version. Available almost from the very start, huge amount of easily accessible attachments (sold by Green Army supplier and money have no value currently anyway), ammo are dirt cheap and found everywhere and has just right pen/dmg balance.

Tho I still upgrade from AKM to Chimera and then to SCAR. I'm always using silencers on all my guns, because of how broken they are, so killing enemies does take 3 shots with AKM/Chimera and only 2 shots with SCAR. Chimera compensates with higher RPM, ergonomics and much lower recoil compared to AKM and SCAR has better ammo with more dmg.

I think the main problem is pen on 7.62x39 blanks, they have 31. Which is just enough to pierce hunters armour in the mall. Against Kibba you forced to use high pen ammo, which have big dmg and recoil cuts. SCAR was a massive upgrade here with it's 40 pen blanks.

The problem is, if you gonna nerf 7.62x39 blanks, it will hit Chimera too, which is supposed to be a high end option somewhere around SCAR. So we need some nerfs to AKM specifically. I'm thinking a big nerf to DMG. It currently sits at 30 stock compared to 26 from Chimera, so maybe birnging it down to 24 would be good. I suppose it's huge recoil should've balanced it's high stats, but in reality it's completely mitigated to like 30 with attachments.

(Btw, AK101 is a complete joke,lol. 20 dmg, worse and rare ammo then 7.62x39 and poor attachments arsenal)

Submachine guns do suck, but they at least usable, compared to stuff like shotguns or pistols. And there's 2 SMG that actually good: Vector .45 and P90. You just need to stop judging all guns as an all-rounder to go farm Kibba with.

Vector was a surprise for me, with 100+ ergonomics you switch to this gun almost instantly and it shreds anything not particularly armoured. You kinda can use high pen ammo on it, drawbacks are not that high, but i'd rather keep it as a sidearm in case I'm caught reloading by some stupid boar.

P90 is the best to deal with wildlife or bandits. 50 rounds clip is extremely handy when you're dealing with a horde of ghouls, The Big or clearing laboratory/oil factory/sewers. Some other guns also can use big mags, but they always come with big debuffs to reload speed and ergonomics, you really don't want to use them. Ammo (blanks) are dirt cheap and available. And you can get a pristine P90 as a quest reward pretty early into the game.

[ChielScape]

Originally posted by Asherogar:

Vector was a surprise for me, with 100+ ergonomics you switch to this gun almost instantly and it shreds anything not particularly armoured. You kinda can use high pen ammo on it, drawbacks are not that high

Its downside would be the ammo consumption.

Originally posted by Asherogar:

You just need to stop judging all guns as an all-rounder to go farm Kibba with.

Not quite sure what you're basing your assumptions on here... I've yet to look for Kibba.

Originally posted by Valhalla Awaits:

Advantage to the scar is that the ammo has better armor penetration, which is useless when fighting wolves/boars/spiders/bandits. But is the difference between life and death when fighting heavily armored enemies which 7.62 often harmlessly bounces off of.

Please accept into your heart our lord and savior, 7.62mm BP.

[Asherogar]

Originally posted by ChielScape:

Not quite sure what you're basing your assumptions on here... I've yet to look for Kibba.

I'm not assuming. Just a general statement that ammo pen is not the only valuable parameter to a gun.

Originally posted by ChielScape:

Please accept into your heart our lord and savior, 7.62mm BP.

Which is a garbage ammo. At least in current version. Regular 7.62x39 PS (blanks) have enough pen against everything including the Mall. The only enemy currently protected from them is Kibba, the boss of the Mall. So you don't need to take DMG and Recoil debuffs unless you're going to farm Kibba for a quest.

To be fair, I never killed Green Army/Crimson guys, especially at the Mall, so maybe they also have enough armor to shrug off AKM blanks.

[ChielScape]

Originally posted by Asherogar:

Originally posted by ChielScape:

Not quite sure what you're basing your assumptions on here... I've yet to look for Kibba.

I'm not assuming. Just a general statement that ammo pen is not the only valuable parameter to a gun.

Originally posted by ChielScape:

Please accept into your heart our lord and savior, 7.62mm BP.

Which is a garbage ammo. At least in current version. Regular 7.62x39 PS (blanks) have enough pen against everything including the Mall. The only enemy currently protected from them is Kibba, the boss of the Mall. So you don't need to take DMG and Recoil debuffs unless you're going to farm Kibba for a quest.

To be fair, I never killed Green Army/Crimson guys, especially at the Mall, so maybe they also have enough armor to shrug off AKM blanks.

Army and Crimson can tank some shots. Also blanks lol...

[McFuzz]

That one automatic pistol is actually really good though :O

[blackvoid]

Originally posted by Frank McFuzz:

That one automatic pistol is actually really good though :O

Because devs inflated the power of 9x18. It is the weakest military 9, close to .38 ACP.

If MP5 has damage of 10, then EPS (which is APS, clumsy brick of a pistol in RL) should have a damage of 8.

All weapon damage values need to be redone. E=(M/2)*(V^2). Subsonic rounds do less damage for a reason, lower speed. Sniper bullets don't do less damage, they are just more expensive. AP bullets do less damage due to overpen. HP bullets do more damage and much more so with higher velocity bullets like the rifle ones.

[Cobalt Wolf]

The craziest part of the APS is that it gets a stock as a separate part with its own massive stat bonus, and it actually has a longer barrel (in real life!) than both the Skorpion and the Kedr which don't get their stocks as separate parts and also use 9x18. It also weighs less, which should mean more recoil, but that's not really present in a significant manner in-game. With BT rounds, which also don't even have an over-penetration damage penalty, you can use it against everyone, including Kibba.

The way armor protection is currently set up for NPCs, you don't even need AP/BT rounds against mall hunters or Kibba when using 7.62x51, 7.62x54R, or 9x39. Just take ball ammo and watch them all die with short bursts.

The AKM and Tapco SKS are probably the best guns in the game when considering ease of acquiring the gun and mods, frequency of repair, and also acceptable DPS values. However, if you have a solid grasp of how to fight in this game, you really can use any gun you want and it will hardly be a handicap. You don't even need to bring AP/BT rounds or hollow points. The only exception to that point would really be the intermediate rounds. The 5.45x39 and 55.6x45 calibers see a massive improvement using AP against hunters or Lazar's group.

[Post Morten]

Gun balance is actually pretty good IMO except for 5.45 and 9x19 shooters being really bad. The fact you've found the AKM to be a really good all-rounder is actually a good thing. Every game needs a benchmark for performance and the AKM should be it for this one.

The AKM being good doesn't invalidate the other weapons. You don't need AP for the vast majority of bad guys in the game right now, so something like the Stechkin that's been mentioned already will also perform great as an all-rounder. Pair that with a sniper rifle of some kind and you have my favourite loadout which can be put together just as early and is just as viable in the late game.

But yeah, 5.45 and 9x19 need some help. The AKS-74U and MP5 are probably the worst weapons in the game right now. On the other hand, the VSS kind of breaks the game if you pair it with the Stealth and Sniper specialties with the only thing holding it back being that it can't be modded. If you could put in the SR-3's 30-round mag and a railed handguard like you're supposed to it would be legit ezmode.

[Cobalt Wolf]

I also now believe that the hunters in the mall have the same armor/health as all the other hunters. Their only difference is the better guns. As it stands, it only seems like the bosses have a significant level of armor. And even they don't stand up to larger caliber rounds.

[Cryptix]

Literally the ECM and MKM are OP and judging by the other comments seems to be because of their 7.62x39 rounds. Literally the only starter guns I can use, the rest are trash. Just moved onto the green bolt-action sniper that is 7.62x54R and it's even better.

Maybe it's also because damage-per-shot seems to be so important. 1 or 2 shots to take down most enemies is perfect any more and it's too risky and consumes way too much ammo IMO.

[Cobalt Wolf]

I take back what I said about 7.62x54R. I starting using it again to play around in the mall and I was seeing a suppressed SVD with standard steel core ammo killing hunters in 1-3 hits because their armor was blocking shots. The SNB armor piercing ammo was a consistent 2 shot kill because it always defeats armor but has the over-pen damage reduction. I think 7.62x54R seems to be where it should be with respect to normal vs AP ammo from a balance standpoint.

Since currently all 7.62x54 guns are slow firing, it also ups the stakes a bit while using it in a close environment. Its peers are still just outright better than it, though. They possess higher pen with standard ammo and can fire from faster firing weapons. I think the game could benefit from pushing 9x39 and 7.62x51 closer to 7.62x54 in performance. It would serve to make the game a bit more challenging.

[blackvoid]

Long barreled SCAR-H should be only marginally worse than SVD, and SVD should be only marginally worse than the mosin. Because 7.62x51 is almost the same in performance as 7.62x54r. The difference in damage is due to the barrel length. 20" vs 24" vs 29"

But it shouldn't be an issue under 800m which is not the game distance. All three should have the same damage.