You are not giving the player enough information

[Pheasant Plucker]

I need to collect fire crystals. Ok, I see the crystal, I see the embers. CLEARLY that means the embers will be the fire traps and I should avoid them. Aaaaaaaaaaand I instantly die because two fire traps spawned nearly on top of each other in an area with 0 embers and no spike in my geiger counter.

I'm walking through the woods, SUDDENLY AN ENEMY IS A FOOT IN FRONT OF ME he kills me before I can get two shots off. I never had a single clue anyone was close to me.

I'm looting a body SUDDENLY I HAVE 4 BLEEDING WOUNDS because the Bloodsucker silently ran up on me and hit me a dozen times in under a second.

I can't react in time to this BS. I'm getting 0 information and suddenly dying. This is not fun gameplay. This does not feel fair. Rarely do I die and think "Oh, I could have done X differently." mostly I just throw my hands up because it was a roll of the dice and I lost, and I can't tell what I could have done differently.

Give the player information. About to stumble onto some bandits? Maybe some mumbling talking noises, or footsteps. You all have footstep sounds, but only when the enemy is about 5 feet away, making the information almost always useless. When a Bloodsucker is charging me, maybe some loud clopping footsteps or demonic noises. SOMETHING! SOMETHING that lets the player know he's been spotted.

Right now you have a fun game that's absolutely ruining itself with awful balancing. If I die I want to know why and how I could have done things differently.

[David]

I think awareness is meant to be part of this game. It seems to be a hardcore game.

Fire plants are dangerous. Collecting crystals can be life-threatening so do it early in a mission.
Enemies are dangerous. Play as if there's an enemy behind every fence or tree.
Bloodsuckers are dangerous. Check the area is clear before looting.

The deaths you described are avoidable if you loot faster, make sure the area is cleared before looting, and you keep awareness. There is a difficulty setting for turning fog of war OFF, so that might be an option as it'll greatly increase detection of enemies for you.

For me, those indicators like expecting bandits or being charged wouldn't do much, because I already expect bandits at buildings & camps, and the possibility of alerted enemies nearby when looting.

[Lockin277]

Originally posted by Obiwan Nairobi:

I need to collect fire crystals. Ok, I see the crystal, I see the embers. CLEARLY that means the embers will be the fire traps and I should avoid them. Aaaaaaaaaaand I instantly die because two fire traps spawned nearly on top of each other in an area with 0 embers and no spike in my geiger counter.

I'm walking through the woods, SUDDENLY AN ENEMY IS A FOOT IN FRONT OF ME he kills me before I can get two shots off. I never had a single clue anyone was close to me.

I'm looting a body SUDDENLY I HAVE 4 BLEEDING WOUNDS because the Bloodsucker silently ran up on me and hit me a dozen times in under a second.

I can't react in time to this BS. I'm getting 0 information and suddenly dying. This is not fun gameplay. This does not feel fair. Rarely do I die and think "Oh, I could have done X differently." mostly I just throw my hands up because it was a roll of the dice and I lost, and I can't tell what I could have done differently.

Give the player information. About to stumble onto some bandits? Maybe some mumbling talking noises, or footsteps. You all have footstep sounds, but only when the enemy is about 5 feet away, making the information almost always useless. When a Bloodsucker is charging me, maybe some loud clopping footsteps or demonic noises. SOMETHING! SOMETHING that lets the player know he's been spotted.

Right now you have a fun game that's absolutely ruining itself with awful balancing. If I die I want to know why and how I could have done things differently.

reading your complaint is clearly a problem in your lack of vigilance

For example, in the case of Crystal, the developer once made a brief statement on how you survive, then they also gave instructions on the tutorial menu. For example in the tutorial you are told if you want to take a fire crystal you can press the button to throw a bolt (or mushroom) so you know which way is safe.

The ghoul makes a sound before attacking, maybe you can try playing this game without listening to music.

first try not to run around like a child in the middle of the forest. Use Right Click to see the area a little further.
second, get to know the location and the building before going to it. For example, a small Camp usually contains 2 bandits or 3 Loners while a large Camp can contain 3-4 bandits or 3-4 Green Army.
Third, be sure to comb the area before looting.

I can say that this game deliberately makes players learn a number of things on their own, so you have a strategy that suits you.

[PsychicSheep]

How'd you even get close to the Crystals, my frame rate went from 60 to 12fps as soon as they were onscreen in any meaningful way...

[Pheasant Plucker]

>the developer once made a brief statement on how you survive,

Asking the player to read through forum posts is about the worst game design you can think of. In fact I'd say it's probably the exact opposite of game design.


>For example in the tutorial you are told if you want to take a fire crystal you can press the button to throw a bolt (or mushroom) so you know which way is safe.

This is the first time I'm hearing about being able to throw a bolt, and I'm 3 hours in and I read the tutorial. Maybe it was in a small side box and I somehow missed it. This is an example of not teaching the player the gameplay mechanics you want them to learn. Something DURING GAMEPLAY should have clued the player (me) into throwing a bolt.

>first try not to run around like a child in the middle of the forest. Use Right Click to see the area a little further.

Highly dismissive response to a new player having trouble in a highly niche small player base game. Don't ever change, internet. I wasn't blindly wandering around. I stepped around a rock and suddenly an NPC was face to face with me. 0 prior warning or information given to the player he was there prior. Bad gameplay design.

>Third, be sure to comb the area before looting.

I did, then a bloodsucker ran in from off-screen and attacked me. NPCs move around. I should be given warning this NPC is charging at me, which I was not. Hence my complaint.

>The ghoul makes a sound before attacking, maybe you can try playing this game without listening to music.

Another dismissive comment. Nope, wasn't listening to music. The bloodsucker (let's not pretend it's not ripped right out of SoC) made no noise. Maybe a bug that the devs need to fix if it's supposed to be making a noise before attacking. It makes a sound AS it hits you, which is not the same thing.

[Lockin277]

Originally posted by PsychicSheep:

How'd you even get close to the Crystals, my frame rate went from 60 to 12fps as soon as they were onscreen in any meaningful way...

First, don't crawl in the middle of the zone when you're not wearing the Hazard Suit. Aim for those who are on the side, throw some mushrooms to find out a safe route.
The point is don't be greedy when you're not ready

[Shaunri]

The game is in very early access and it doesn't have the proper tutorial - that's true.

So a simple tutorial:

- Do not try to fiinish quests during your first raids. Try to focus on getting in, looting, and getting out. Quests will come naturally to you as you get more experience in the game.
- You cannot fight anybody wearing armor early game. Very early game you cannot fight anybody holding a gun.
- Holding right mouse button to see futher is a life saver, do it all the time.
- Learn the map - it's procedural, yes, but a lot of places are sets that are put into the procedural map. You can quickly learn which sets of buildings hold good stuff, which have good defence, and which are simply a death trap
- Do not worry about early game deaths, just jump right back in, they happen really often early game, up until the point that they pretty much stop. Around the time you get some decent lvl 4 armor.
- Do not focus on doing "everything" during one run, just try to get some decent loot, and go to extraction point.
- Hollow point ammo is your friend early game - good for killing animals and bloodsuckers, later in the game you need more penetration ammo.
- Try to remember which loot sells for how much money - it's useful, especially that in ZS getting armor and backpacks is only avaliable through shops

Everything else should come with some experience a couple of hours into the game to be fair :)


And yea, i think there is no information on bolt throwing in tutorial, or i missed it too ;)

[Lockin277]

Originally posted by Obiwan Nairobi:

>the developer once made a brief statement on how you survive,

Asking the player to read through forum posts is about the worst game design you can think of. In fact I'd say it's probably the exact opposite of game design.


>For example in the tutorial you are told if you want to take a fire crystal you can press the button to throw a bolt (or mushroom) so you know which way is safe.

This is the first time I'm hearing about being able to throw a bolt, and I'm 3 hours in and I read the tutorial. Maybe it was in a small side box and I somehow missed it. This is an example of not teaching the player the gameplay mechanics you want them to learn. Something DURING GAMEPLAY should have clued the player (me) into throwing a bolt.

>first try not to run around like a child in the middle of the forest. Use Right Click to see the area a little further.

Highly dismissive response to a new player having trouble in a highly niche small player base game. Don't ever change, internet. I wasn't blindly wandering around. I stepped around a rock and suddenly an NPC was face to face with me. 0 prior warning or information given to the player he was there prior. Bad gameplay design.

>Third, be sure to comb the area before looting.

I did, then a bloodsucker ran in from off-screen and attacked me. NPCs move around. I should be given warning this NPC is charging at me, which I was not. Hence my complaint.

>The ghoul makes a sound before attacking, maybe you can try playing this game without listening to music.

Another dismissive comment. Nope, wasn't listening to music. The bloodsucker (let's not pretend it's not ripped right out of SoC) made no noise. Maybe a bug that the devs need to fix if it's supposed to be making a noise before attacking. It makes a sound AS it hits you, which is not the same thing.

Just imagine that you live in the world of the apocalypse, the first thing you do is gather information first. I'm sure you don't interact too much with the people in the bunker at the start of the game. I'm probably sure you haven't looked at the buttons you can press while playing. I also didn't notice at the start, until when I adjusted the in-game buttons. I see a button to throw this mushroom but can't figure out what to do with it. I opened the tutorial and found mentions about it. Then I went around the bunker talking to several people and some mentioned this too. So basically trial and error is needed.

this is not a dismissive response, but a fact. I once made a post about why people were complaining that they died from the shock of the enemy right in their face. The internet doesn't change when you don't change my friend. most survival games take a First Person perspective while ZeSie's third person perspective. That's why many people run or walk too close to all objects. Tell me when you go around the rock how far are you from the rock? are you circling it a third of the screen away? I bet you circled it as close as your index finger. First to understand that this is not an action film, there are no enemies who say "Freeze". If you are playing then suddenly someone appears from behind a rock holding a gun. Do you think you screamed first or shot him first.

identify objects around you my friend, stay away from objects that block your view. When I say combing then you are combing not looking around. Pay attention to where you are, Ghouls don't appear like ghosts. They live in certain places, if you are near the village make sure all 3-4 houses from your location are empty of ghouls. If there's a building that should have Ghouls but you can't find one, you better be extra careful.

if you don't want to be dismissive, then try doing several strategies. The problem you laid out is a Minor problem that occurs when people are walking casually enough. try to be a little timid at the beginning of the game, it will give you intuition in the future.

[Lockin277]

Originally posted by Shaunri:

And yea, i think there is no information on bolt throwing in tutorial, or i missed it too ;)

I'm sure they didn't put him in an order like pressing such and such for throwing bolts. They give a hint about it, then mention it at the NPC, also at the Loading Screen occasionally.

however if no one notices then i say sorry about that.

[Wolfiefang]

I think what the OP is saying is that TOO much of the game is still the Devs and some players assuming people have played Stalker, and understand how to handle things. If I picked up this game and didn't know how to play Stalker, I would be in a world of hurt! Nothing tells you throw bolts, also bolts trigger those anomalies. Also anomalies can be all around those visuals. etc, etc. I am VERY glad I have.

I actually didn't play Tarkov, and while that's less a handicap; I have had to learn from other Tarkov players how to play a little better. I've also noticed a lot of information hidden behind the Hints and Tips while loading that I wish I had just been told (Ctrl + Click to transfer should NOT be hidden behind a Tip!)

You definitely should LEARN as you play, but the learning shouldn't be DIE once because of hidden knowledge, lose your run; and the Trial and error your way to learn how to get those crystals without any info. It should be someone saying "Hey, Anomalies are hard to see, throw bolts around the area to see them" and then Trial and Error your way to learn how to get those crystals with the info provided.

You get the point? Tribal Knowledge in games is not fun. It's not easy to tell you can even THROW bolts around, that they trigger Anomalies at all, or how far away those anomalies can be from crystals or visual signs of them. The OP is just asking for information ahead of time so they can learn how to do it, which I think is really needed for a bunch of things; Probably more than I realize since I'm just automatically doing things as a long term Stalker player.

[I3eauLeBoi]

To avoid the fire just throw bolts with G i believe.
I didn't know that, i was like "Oh, it works like that" But alas.
The fire is very specific, you can get rather near to that and loot the crystals.

Should be in controls as well i believe.

[I3eauLeBoi]

Originally posted by Shaunri:

The game is in very early access and it doesn't have the proper tutorial - that's true.

So a simple tutorial:

- Do not try to fiinish quests during your first raids. Try to focus on getting in, looting, and getting out. Quests will come naturally to you as you get more experience in the game.
- You cannot fight anybody wearing armor early game. Very early game you cannot fight anybody holding a gun.
- Holding right mouse button to see futher is a life saver, do it all the time.
- Learn the map - it's procedural, yes, but a lot of places are sets that are put into the procedural map. You can quickly learn which sets of buildings hold good stuff, which have good defence, and which are simply a death trap
- Do not worry about early game deaths, just jump right back in, they happen really often early game, up until the point that they pretty much stop. Around the time you get some decent lvl 4 armor.
- Do not focus on doing "everything" during one run, just try to get some decent loot, and go to extraction point.
- Hollow point ammo is your friend early game - good for killing animals and bloodsuckers, later in the game you need more penetration ammo.
- Try to remember which loot sells for how much money - it's useful, especially that in ZS getting armor and backpacks is only avaliable through shops

Everything else should come with some experience a couple of hours into the game to be fair :)


And yea, i think there is no information on bolt throwing in tutorial, or i missed it too ;)

You can actually fight people with armor.
If you pick the MkM rifle, it takes 2 shots to take down hunters, BP rounds.

[Lockin277]

Originally posted by Obiwan Nairobi:

You are not giving the player enough information

Okay listen Obiwan Nairobi, forget about what my mud mouth my friend.
This game is more about the survival aspect, and when it comes to survival it's not just talking about eating and drinking. So forget all the tutorials, be you. Sorry to make you dismissive. Taste trial and error how much you need, i will give you a little mock :
1. Be timid at the beginning of the game, walk, stop, look around, walk, stop, look around, repeat several times.
2. Stay away from objects that block your view, when you are not ready for a surprise.
3. open control settings, and see what buttons you can use.
4. Throw some mushrooms before trying to pick up the crystals.
5. Walk around the location before looting, and get to know the buildings and fixed objects.

with this you should be fine.

[GALLONofPCP]

I usually ALWAYS look at what keybindings/controls are when starting a new game.. hence how I discovered the bolt and inspection zoom.

But like some have stated, its best to just try to learn the basics of getting in and getting out successfully before you really start picking fights and nailing out quests. The gun play can be a little unfair due to lack of audio cues (being top down, not 3rd person), but you figure out a tactic with whatever weapon works and learn that sprinting is what gets you killed early. Personally I wander, walk, half the map, even with the sprinter perk, running being used for mostly flanking or looting a camp site after its been fully cleared of its original occupants. You still have to watch for the wandering npcs that'll want to see that camp you just cleared out too.

Find a gun that fits whatever tactic you like..

Coming from Stalker & Tarkov... this is like a SNES version of both of those combined. It'll be brutal, and thats an understatement, but once you get the hang of it, it'll get a little too easy. But thats why its early access and is totally subject to change. At least we don't lose everything upon death.. nor do you have some chad camping mall extract..

sometimes its just best to go in with one task at hand, complete it, and get the hell outta dodge.. greediness leads to gluttony, in a life where material possessions only drag you down.