Let's Talk: Making a Tier list before EWC upsets !! by Super Akouma

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Link to video and reasonings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQid-f8_M1Y

I'll mention some notes that I've found interesting after the list, but for now, here's the list itself:

S++: Nina, Yoshimitsu

S+: Dragunov

S: Shaheen, Alisa, Jin, Bryan, King, Feng, Law

A: Lili, Kazuya, Kuma, Xiaoyu, Claudio, Lee, Victor, Steve, Reina, Lars, Asuka

B: Leo, Hwoarang, Lidia, Paul, Eddy, Azucena, Zafina, Leroy, Devil Jin, Raven

C: Jack, Jun, Panda

Note 1: He considers Dragunov the best character in the game, with the caveat that you don't care to invest huge amounts of time into your character, and stated how the difference between a 1st timed Dragunov and Fear of Silence's Dragunov, who's a Dragunov specialist, is extremely minimal, while Nina and Yoshimitsu are slightly stronger than Dragunov if you decided to actually invest time and master the characters.

Note 2: He mentioned how Pakistani consider Bryan a top 5 character

Note 3: As per always, I was right about Alisa :p he mentions how her offense is lackluster, and if you want to properly beat her, bore her out and make her come to you. Her movement is really good so she can avoid a lot of stuff if you try to constantly pressure her and one big way for her to deal a lot of damage is if you keep pressing into her frame traps without a plan and eat counterhits such as her d/f1,1,1+2 string, but if you make her come to you, there's nothing scary in her kit, granted, he didn't say it, so I'll say it for him, you gotta learn the match-up if you want to do that.

Note 4: He says how they gave Kazuya so much that he doesn't need to gamba much on the hellsweep anymore, d/f1,d/f2 is a free poke (yea, who would've guessed?) and his damage is absurd, and mentions a hard combo that can deal 150 damage with no walls off of a d/f2 > Electric, and as he mentioned, if you can get 150 damage off of something hard, you can probably get around 130 without it being too hard.

Well, those are my notes, for other stuff, watch his vid.

[Lord Oink]

interesting persp. on dragunov. kazuya hits like a truck but even his damage looks wimpy compared to dragunov, look at keisuke's matches in evo top 6 against atif and ulsan.

[FerSantander]

That's exactly what I've been saying about Alisa since T6 days; just let her come to you, react in time, and win, unless of course you find a pro PRO PROOO freak Alisa player, then you'll need something more than that in order to win.

Still, I think it's pretty obvious that all the new stuff made her way more dangerous (every char is more dangerous and buffed up now at long last), and in T8 waiting for someone might not come as the most optimal strategy most of the times.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by FerSantander:

That's exactly what I've been saying about Alisa since T6 days; just let her come to you, react in time, and win, unless of course you find a pro PRO PROOO freak Alisa player, then you'll need something more like that to win of course.

Still, I think it's pretty obvious that all the new stuff made her way more dangerous (every char is more dangerous and buffed up now at long last), and in T8 waiting for someone might not come as the most optimal strategy most of the times.

Which means it's more important to know her matchup and matchup specific things, such as, if you're Lili, Alisa's b3 will avoid your jab if Alisa is -1 (I didn't lab to see how far that goes tho), so stepping or jab checking at like +1 or -1 can backfire without a read, etc.

But eh, when you reach the level here that stuff actually matters, you're playing the player more than the character.

[FerSantander]

Indeed, but labbing is more of a preference. I've always used practice mode only to learn the moves in each iteration.

I always liked labbin` by heart, in other words learning by playing, and enjoying, for this is a videogame after all, not a maths exercise or exam. Leave that to the guys in tournaments where money is in place; then yeah go dissect the game until you see under the microscope its atoms move and all that; the frames this and that so you can know with exact precision how to deal against every move, until you develop Neo's Matrix code vision. Only then can I understand focusing on frames and stuff like that only, but to me what matters the most is the human factor; the pilot, controlling the machine.

I always found Alisa one of the easiest characters to win against until T8. That's where I wanted to make my point basically.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by FerSantander:

Indeed, but labbing is more of a preference. I've always used practice mode only to learn the moves in each iteration.

I always liked labbin` by heart, in other words learning by playing, and enjoying, for this is a videogame after all, not a maths exercise or exam. Leave that to the guys in tournaments where money is in place; then yeah go dissect the game until you see under the microscope its atoms move and all that; the frames this and that so you can know with exact precision how to deal against every move, until you develop Neo's Matrix code vision. Only then can I understand focusing on frames and stuff like that only, but to me what matters the most is the human factor; the pilot, controlling the machine.

I always found Alisa one of the easiest characters to win against until T8. That's where I wanted to make my point basically.

I don't find her hard to deal with in T8 either, then again, she's my main, so I have a lot of experience.

The only Alisas I struggled with were better players than me, so I was simply outmatched, so I can't complain.

[FerSantander]

Yeah, but I guess we can agree that the new aggressive system, guard damage and heat, plus her new moves, have made her more difficult to play against, as It has happened with every character in T8 because every one of them was buffed up.

I'm very used to fighting Alisas for many years too, and I find her match up kinda more difficult now, for the reason given above.

I mean when fighting Alisas all these years I have always displayed a non careful predisposition against them with some honourable exceptions of course. Now I'm as careful against her as against any other.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by FerSantander:

Yeah, but I guess we can agree that the new aggressive system, guard damage and heat, plus her new moves, have made her more difficult to play against, as It has happened with every character in T8 because every one of them was buffed up.

I'm very used to fighting Alisas for many years too, and I find her match up kinda more difficult now, for the reason given above.

I mean when fighting Alisas all these years I have always displayed a non careful predisposition against them with some honourable exceptions of course. Now I'm as careful against her as against any other.

That's not really an Alisa specific thing, as all characters are harder to deal with now than they were in previous games, at the very least she doesn't have guard breaks, unbreakable throws, huge 50-50s or massive rushdown and the like.

[HoneyDrake]

I find the list reasonable, but a bit surprised about Jack being rated that lowly with Lidia being in a similar or even worse spot than him. (I would be fine if someone would to correct me here)

[Sirlion]

Oh look at that some guy who cant win without a 2D fireball spamming S++++ top tier has an opinion. Next time I'll ask my nephew's nanny if she has a tierlist to share with the class

[boy i'll whip ya head]

The kazuya perspective is not the way to think imo. The perfect electric combo is probably the hardest thing to do in the entirety of tekken, getting even a single perfect electric in a match is ridiculously difficult for even the best kazuyas in the world. His highest damage combos that are actually viable range from 80-90 with walls. Also Kazuyas poke game is pretty much non existent, even with df1df2 its a 15 frame startup and -8 on block. He has many strengths that make him really good, but those are like the 2 worst points to make about him lol.

[Tremolo69]

It doesnt change much really but at the end he put Jun and Jack back to B tier, so panda can stay alone in C.

[Wipkonijntje]

i'd say Yoshi is in a sepperate S tier in S tier himself lol.

[AvidExpert]

I'm glad more people who know their stuff realize Yoshi got completely bombed into S++++ tier.

Sad part is I still whoop 99% of Yoshi players as I used to be one so know MU inside out and they have no idea how you are supposed to play this char, they just try to samurai cutter 24/7 etc.

but damn he is the BIGGEST neutral ignoring insanely pressuring safe char they ever made, with infinite tracking, evasion and other stuff now.

[FerSantander]

Yoshi online very different from what you see on tournies and offline.

[AvidExpert]

Originally posted by FerSantander:

Yoshi online very different from what you see on tournies and offline.

This statement is always dumb, regardless of a Tourny or a 1st dan YOshi, 3,1/,3,2 are still obnoxious neutral skips in the most harshest ways for example.

If you can't backup you're talk, don't talk.