How do you fight against Kazuya?

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

I hear all the time people say Kazuya is such a hard character to play, but if he hits you with d/b+4 you're helpless to do anything optimal. It's such a damn good move. -12 oB and +4 on hit. I know people will say you have to be standing to do it, but most of the time if he gets in your face, it'll be his turn if he has knocked you down or is utilizing movement correctly with EWGF and f+4, etc.

D/b+4 puts him at +4, but hit-confirmable d/f4,4 becomes uninterruptible from all sidesteps and side-walk with the exception a quick ssr, but that's dangerous as it leaves you open to an EWGF or d/f+2. He can also delay attacks which further becomes frustrating as now he can apply a mix-up here. Kazuya can also loop a d/b+4 if you respect him or hit you directly with d/f+2 if you're disrespecting him for a full launch. If he wants to play safe he can go for 1,1,2 as well. It's such a good move and he has moves like....

ff+2, f+4, d/f+2, ewgf, 1,1,2, ff+3, hell-sweep, ws+1,2.

Ff+2 controls a lot of space and deals chip, especially with ewgf. Fighting him up-close could result in getting hit with both options especially with d/f+2. The mind-game with d/f+1,2, d/f1,1 would be less annoying if d/f+1,1 did not push-back. Also, if you try to out jab him he can ws+1,2 and/or ws+1,2 any low that is -13, which is a lot of characters or his stand ewgf/ff+2 neutral. Hell-sweep that gives good oki with safe launch. Strong damage and chip. D/f+2 is very, very good to throw out more often then not because it's tracking and i14 so the possibility of it landing is very high. His CD+1+2 puts him in a mix-up and ewgf basically becomes homing. This character is really annoying to deal with unlike T7 as he is both strong and very hard to deal with regardless of opponent skill level. Very hard to side-step with the unreliability of EWGF. Sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesn't. I read a post about him being a 50/50 no skill character and I normally reserve that judgment, but this character is kind of strong in that aspect, that he kind of is like that and can play like that. I can't figure out a game-plan against this character and he's supposed to be basic.

[Boss]

df4 is -9 on block, there's very he can do to stop you starting your offense unless you use a slow move or he makes a great read, and df4,4 is -15 if he makes a mistake confirming it

ff2, f4, ewgf, 112, and ff3 are all beaten by sidestep/sidewalk left, as are many other of his moves.

He has no df1,1. You probably mean df1,2 and df1,df2. You can fuzzy-guard that (quickly duck after df1 and let go of ducking. You'll either go under the df1,2 or stand up in time to block both. Takes practice, and would be harder with lag, but it's doable. df1,df2 is also -8, so if he's mashing after it, use a longer reaching move

Stay on the ground sometimes after hellsweep

You gotta punish df2 every time you block it, don't let him get away with it

CD1+2 is also sidestep left

If you don't move left and always get up and take the Oki, Kazuya's gonna been much harder to beat than he should be.

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Boss:

df4 is -9 on block, there's very he can do to stop you starting your offense unless you use a slow move or he makes a great read, and df4,4 is -15 if he makes a mistake confirming it

ff2, f4, ewgf, 112, and ff3 are all beaten by sidestep/sidewalk left, as are many other of his moves.

He has no df1,1. You probably mean df1,2 and df1,df2. You can fuzzy-guard that (quickly duck after df1 and let go of ducking. You'll either go under the df1,2 or stand up in time to block both. Takes practice, and would be harder with lag, but it's doable. df1,df2 is also -8, so if he's mashing after it, use a longer reaching move

Stay on the ground sometimes after hellsweep

You gotta punish df2 every time you block it, don't let him get away with it

CD1+2 is also sidestep left

If you don't move left and always get up and take the Oki, Kazuya's gonna been much harder to beat than he should be.

From my experience, all of ff2, f4, ewgf, 112, and ff3 will not be used directly up front. Normally, good Kazuya's are moving as a target, he will not engage you unless you he's plus or you're respecting him. It's quite difficult to get in in the first place with him throwing out EWGF, or a 1 jab in the air. Sometimes a d+1+2 in this case, or hell-sweep if he sees you stop moving. My issue is d/f+2 is extremely good in terms of mind-games and side-stepping as it forces you to respect his timing. Him taking a -12 to the face isn't that bad considering the potential he can do as soon as he walls you. It's literally quite over with his heat and such that the possibility that he can continue offense is extremely high and versatile as it buffs his hell-sweep, gives him a hell-sweep like heat and heat dash. It's insane.

CD+1+2 is +5 and normally if he understands your sidestep he can always choose to delay hell-sweep or d/f+2 further intensifying the mind-game. Staying on the ground helps, but it doesn't help enough that it is Kazuya dictating the match most of the time unless you're playing a character with a strong i13 safe mid. And this is why I dislike him a lot.

Of course, you punish d/f+2, but it's an amazing move is my point. It's better than a hop-kick at i14 and is fully tracking. This further makes it difficult to simply just ssl or sswl his attacks. The oki like the staying on the ground isn't my problem, it's engaging him is very difficult if he is patient or whenever he decides to go 50/50 ham due to the respect he is given. It's like at a higher level of player he can seem like a 50/50 casino and that is why I am having trouble with that. Yes, d/f+1, d/f2 is what I meant. I'm glad you can fuzzy that, but it still doesn't take the fact that he is formidable and I still cannot figure out a gameplan against him. To be honest, I feel the only thing that beats him is stronger, faster rush-down characters as overwhelming him seems like the best option, which I normally do not like to do, especially if I'm playing a character without fast pokes or safer lows.

[Cheez3]

if u use reina u just say:
"dad doesnt love u haha".

insta perfect

[Boss]

Of course a good player will be mindful of his timings, spacing, and movement, so if you're gonna take that into account, I can't tell you how to beat Kazuya other than gitting gud yourself, both in general and adapting to the specific opponent. You can still step left all of those moves from further away if you time it properly.

But since reading reading the opponent's exact timing in is not very reliable, you gotta keep moving, and keep stepping left. If you do that, he should be more hesitant to throw out a linear move, and if he does, it's easier to step it, then punish. Usually you keep doing stuff dash-block, backstep, sidestep-block, sidewalk, all while trying to get to your ideal range to get offense going, or to pigeon-hole your opponent into specific options so that he's easier to predict.

If he's throwing out EGWFs for keepout really well, you still need to try to keep the distance really well, and use high-crushing moves to get in on him. With Lee, I use ff4 against Mishimas more than any other character for that reason, but every character should have something.

Rushdown does tend to work against Kazuya because his pokes aren't great (no generic df1 means he has to commit to df3 which is bad on block, or his other fast moves which are unsafe), and his strengths have always been mixup and oki. It's just that now he got a few new good neutral tools, so until you get in you really have to watch your spacing, especially on higher levels of play (true for all macthups)

Mixups are however, not true guessing, because you're still playing against an actual human on the other side who's making decisions, so again, it's about reading tendencies and reducing options the opponent has, and doing some risk management

[Zenkaiboost Kekkei Genkai]

this game should be called Mishima Cancer

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Boss:

Of course a good player will be mindful of his timings, spacing, and movement, so if you're gonna take that into account, I can't tell you how to beat Kazuya other than gitting gud yourself, both in general and adapting to the specific opponent. You can still step left all of those moves from further away if you time it properly.

I mean, that would be a given, if you hadn't said that you can just side-step them, because that's not the case majority of the time and it's easier said than done especially if you get hit by a delayed ewgf or wave-dash by respecting. This is a problem, because unlike characters like Feng for example, side-stepping won't get you launched. The best thing I've taken from this is to watch Kazuya's timing, rather than the side-step left thing and I'm starting to see what I can do with it now, as it's different than fighting other characters as it emphasizes on timing rather than the button Kazuya presses; so that's a good thing. The git-gud aspect is such a terrible adage in this regards, because I'm trying to come up with a strategy to defeat the character, which is getting good. It's no different than shadow-boxing or anticipating how opponents would prefer to play a character.

Originally posted by Boss:

But since reading reading the opponent's exact timing in is not very reliable, you gotta keep moving, and keep stepping left. If you do that, he should be more hesitant to throw out a linear move, and if he does, it's easier to step it, then punish. Usually you keep doing stuff dash-block, backstep, sidestep-block, sidewalk, all while trying to get to your ideal range to get offense going, or to pigeon-hole your opponent into specific options so that he's easier to predict.

This would work if it wasn't for his d/b+4 which I was lamenting on. It fully tracks both sides and it's only -12 and +4. This puts you as the player at an extremely disadvantageous position and even further amplifies his mind-games. He can do this multiple times without risking his life. Likewise, you guess wrong or disrespect him, you may as well be eating a d/f+2 or ewgf to the face. It's not really a good trade-off. Once again though, if timing is the only option, then he's pretty damn solid character if you ask me. Even Bryan has holes beyond timing and unsafe stuff, but Kazuya doesn't seem to have much of a weakness is my point. However, I'm starting to see what I can do to fight him, but it doesn't make it any easier as he's a lot stronger, yet still so very basic as a character whole.

Originally posted by Boss:

If he's throwing out EGWFs for keepout really well, you still need to try to keep the distance really well, and use high-crushing moves to get in on him. With Lee, I use ff4 against Mishimas more than any other character for that reason, but every character should have something.

I suppose, but some characters do not have high-crush attacks, or good enough lows that warrant to be used against ewgf. It's very difficult to approach him if so. I like the idea, but the execution is easier said than done.

Originally posted by Boss:

Rushdown does tend to work against Kazuya because his pokes aren't great (no generic df1 means he has to commit to df3 which is bad on block, or his other fast moves which are unsafe), and his strengths have always been mixup and oki. It's just that now he got a few new good neutral tools, so until you get in you really have to watch your spacing, especially on higher levels of play (true for all macthups)

Meh, I disagree. watching your spacing and timing with Kazuya is much more difficult than with characters such as Devil Jin, Kuma, Dragunov, or insert character here, etc. The reason being, Kazuya's 50/50 vortex and d/b4 combined with the rest of his kit such as demon-paw, giving him a really overall complete kit, almost as complete as Jin's, but without a power d/f+1, which is probably why he struggles against the better characters. My issue with that is if you don't have one such as that, it's his ball in the court to make a -9 move and let me remind you that d/f+1,d/f+2 pushes quite far, so it's not like it's a real mix-up if he decides to use it. Kazuya has some pretty good frames with his attacks and some good homing tools that allow him to diversify his tools. Those few new good neutral tools are great against characters who need to go in anyway and he's still strong defensive character, especially if they lack that quick d/f+1.

Originally posted by Boss:

Mixups are however, not true guessing, because you're still playing against an actual human on the other side who's making decisions, so again, it's about reading tendencies and reducing options the opponent has, and doing some risk management

Mix-ups are not true guessing, but a d/b+4 that's -12 and +4, makes it a real guessing game, especially if the Kazuya knows which options track. For example, I believe you can use f+4 into f+4 and it will still track sslf/sswl. And, once again, ewgf can be inconsistent and delaying it can catch opponents for a very easy launch that is safe on block and push-backs for a neutral reset.

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Boss:

But since reading reading the opponent's exact timing in is not very reliable, you gotta keep moving, and keep stepping left. If you do that, he should be more hesitant to throw out a linear move, and if he does, it's easier to step it, then punish. Usually you keep doing stuff dash-block, backstep, sidestep-block, sidewalk, all while trying to get to your ideal range to get offense going, or to pigeon-hole your opponent into specific options so that he's easier to predict.

Ah, this one's pretty good advice, but then again...it's simply overwhelming him by jockeying with my aggression first, which basically means... get a jump on him before he gets a jump on me. Hahaha...so perhaps offense is the best defense against Kazuya. Damn. That's kind of ass, but at least it's something better than hoping to land a side-step left on him, but that is concrete. Not my favorite approach, but I'll see what I can do with these. I really do appreciate your feed-back by the way, as it does give me something to sound board with rather than getting stuck with nothing. Anyway, if you have any other stuff to say, it'd be great as I'm all ears to evaluate what I can see can work for me here and there. So, very much appreciated.

[Ring Master Jesus]

Sidewalk left is the best way to deal with kazuya but it takes precise timing.

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Ring Master Jesus:

Sidewalk left is the best way to deal with kazuya but it takes precise timing.

I wish that were true. Have you watched Keisuke vs. Edge in the TWT LQC? It wasn't the side-step left that won against Keisuke's Kazuya. It was the stuffed aggression and constant aggression that defeated him. In fact, some SSL literally killed Edge with a delayed EWGF to the face like multiple rounds. Rarely did Edge ssl punish, and when he did SSL multiple times he was stuffed by a delayed electric; it was more aggressive crouching and back to offense. He stuffed a lot of Keisuke's offense with d/f+1.

With Kazuya when I think about it, it's more about jockeying a better offense positioning, and then going aggressive on him before he does on you. If you respect him, it's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with, and then being precise with timing rather than constantly sidestepping left as that will kill you with a well-timed EWGF.

[Vahel]

I'd like to tell you that SWL is the answer, but it's most certainly not against a competent Kazuya, and trying to step a Kazuya in heat is pure suicide 90% of the time anyway.

Against him, you have to win against the player imo, not the character. Except for being agressive to stop him from getting inside your head and apply his gameplan, or learning how to fuzzy duck his df+1 mixups to render the move very difficult to use effectively, there's basically nothing obvious to exploit. (and reacting to d+1+2 but it's whatever)

I wouldn't like to assume something wrong about your in-game mentality, so if I'm way off the mark, feel free to tell me.
From your inital post, it seems like you have a case of "this character can do this" instead of "this player is not doing that". This is something that will kill you in some matchups such as Yoshimitsu (constant fear of the Flash), Asuka/Jun (Sabaki/Parry/Cancan), but most importantly here : Kazuya.
Maybe tackling the matchup while thinking more about your opponent's options instead of his character's might help you.
I know it might sound like an empty advice but I swear it can make a world of difference. :')

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Vahel:

I'd like to tell you that SWL is the answer, but it's most certainly not against a competent Kazuya, and trying to step a Kazuya in heat is pure suicide 90% of the time anyway.

Against him, you have to win against the player imo, not the character. Except for being agressive to stop him from getting inside your head and apply his gameplan, or learning how to fuzzy duck his df+1 mixups to render the move very difficult to use effectively, there's basically nothing obvious to exploit. (and reacting to d+1+2 but it's whatever)

I wouldn't like to assume something wrong about your in-game mentality, so if I'm way off the mark, feel free to tell me.
From your inital post, it seems like you have a case of "this character can do this" instead of "this player is not doing that". This is something that will kill you in some matchups such as Yoshimitsu (constant fear of the Flash), Asuka/Jun (Sabaki/Parry/Cancan), but most importantly here : Kazuya.
Maybe tackling the matchup while thinking more about your opponent's options instead of his character's might help you.
I know it might sound like an empty advice but I swear it can make a world of difference. :')

Yeah...this was the conclusion I was getting at too, and that was what was bothering me so much. Perhaps, I like the easy wins when I can exploit their character rather than having to fully focus on fighting the opponent all the time, hahaha. I mean, that's not my entire in-game mentality, but it does help to short-cut the fights sometimes if I do know what they're capable of, so to speak.

So, when you say that it appears that I believe that initially appear to mainly focus on whether a character can do this and the player is not doing that; if you mean I'm focusing purely on the character rather than the player, I'm actually looking at both, but I can understand how it could end up killing me. Especially when it comes to characters who can get in my head, which really messes with me more than the player sometimes; but how can you know for sure? If it becomes a long set...finding answers to this can get really blurry and complicated. Then again, I'm not really an expert in playing long sets, so if you have advice on that, maybe it'd clear my assumptions.

Hmm... lol, I just want to be able to beat mostly good, competent Kazuya's in a consistent manner you know!?

[Ring Master Jesus]

Originally posted by Be_Proud (Heritage):

Originally posted by Ring Master Jesus:

Sidewalk left is the best way to deal with kazuya but it takes precise timing.

I wish that were true. Have you watched Keisuke vs. Edge in the TWT LQC? It wasn't the side-step left that won against Keisuke's Kazuya. It was the stuffed aggression and constant aggression that defeated him. In fact, some SSL literally killed Edge with a delayed EWGF to the face like multiple rounds. Rarely did Edge ssl punish, and when he did SSL multiple times he was stuffed by a delayed electric; it was more aggressive crouching and back to offense. He stuffed a lot of Keisuke's offense with d/f+1.

With Kazuya when I think about it, it's more about jockeying a better offense positioning, and then going aggressive on him before he does on you. If you respect him, it's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with, and then being precise with timing rather than constantly sidestepping left as that will kill you with a well-timed EWGF.

You don't get it. Pro play is levels ahead of normal players, their movement is way beyond what average players can do.

Sidewalk left is really effective against Kazuya even in higher ranks like Tekken King but the key word I used is PRECISE timing. I'm not telling you to sidewalk left all game long, the purpose of precisely timing a sidewalk to the left is to make Kazuya think twice when throwing an EWGF or ff+2 or ff+3 or f+4 or hellsweep. If you can time it, Kazuya will be forced to play more defensively rather than just throwing wavu wavu mixups all day. This will work into your favor when fighting him.

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Originally posted by Ring Master Jesus:

Originally posted by Be_Proud (Heritage):

I wish that were true. Have you watched Keisuke vs. Edge in the TWT LQC? It wasn't the side-step left that won against Keisuke's Kazuya. It was the stuffed aggression and constant aggression that defeated him. In fact, some SSL literally killed Edge with a delayed EWGF to the face like multiple rounds. Rarely did Edge ssl punish, and when he did SSL multiple times he was stuffed by a delayed electric; it was more aggressive crouching and back to offense. He stuffed a lot of Keisuke's offense with d/f+1.

With Kazuya when I think about it, it's more about jockeying a better offense positioning, and then going aggressive on him before he does on you. If you respect him, it's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with, and then being precise with timing rather than constantly sidestepping left as that will kill you with a well-timed EWGF.

You don't get it. Pro play is levels ahead of normal players, their movement is way beyond what average players can do.

Sidewalk left is really effective against Kazuya even in higher ranks like Tekken King but the key word I used is PRECISE timing. I'm not telling you to sidewalk left all game long, the purpose of precisely timing a sidewalk to the left is to make Kazuya think twice when throwing an EWGF or ff+2 or ff+3 or f+4 or hellsweep. If you can time it, Kazuya will be forced to play more defensively rather than just throwing wavu wavu mixups all day. This will work into your favor when fighting him.

Not exactly. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. What I'm saying is it's not worth the effort in side-stepping left even if it's precise as it is to first to stuff Kazuya & get an offense going and THEN being precise on SSL. It's completely different than what you are suggesting. You're saying:

Originally posted by Ring Master Jesus:

Sidewalk left is the best way to deal with kazuya but it takes precise timing.

I'm telling you, it's not the best way to deal with Kazuya and it could get you killed against good ones. I'm not talking about decent ones or above average ones here, I'm not training to fight against TK's. The priority isn't to look for side-walk left in a precise manner as a main weakness, it's to do that after you've stopped him from enforcing his game-plan. It's completely different than your advice as SSL is supplementary to the game game-plan not the key to consistent winning against.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

I think two details people aren't menioning about his d/f1 are that:
1. only Lili and Victor (for some reason) can side step it, everyone else has to side walk it, so it's still a good check.
2. d/f1,d/f2 is a ch launcher, so he can use it similar to Alisa's d/f1,4 or Bryan's d/f2,3, where even tho the move is -7 (note, Alisa's is -6 so it's not like she can spam it either), he has the threat of a huge counterhit launcher for Kazuya level damage.

I've only ever seen one Kazuya player actually try to abuse the fact that it's a ch launcher, and it was terrifying to play against it, so that's a huge mind game on top of it, so if you respect the ch launcher, well, he can easily do d/f1 > hellsweep or d/f1 > ff3 or d/f1 > f4 or d/f1 > d/b4 etc and the moment he gets the read you'll try to stop him from disrespecting frames, you eat a Kazuya combo.

Also, let's not forget the bs that d/f2 does as a combo ender at the wall, giving him a huge 50-50 and because of wall positioning, you lose your movement option (that one needs to go), and with how powerful his wall game is, with everything wallsplatting to give him full combo, yea....

[Vahel]

Originally posted by Be_Proud (Heritage):

Yeah...this was the conclusion I was getting at too, and that was what was bothering me so much. Perhaps, I like the easy wins when I can exploit their character rather than having to fully focus on fighting the opponent all the time, hahaha. I mean, that's not my entire in-game mentality, but it does help to short-cut the fights sometimes if I do know what they're capable of, so to speak.

So, when you say that it appears that I believe that initially appear to mainly focus on whether a character can do this and the player is not doing that; if you mean I'm focusing purely on the character rather than the player, I'm actually looking at both, but I can understand how it could end up killing me. Especially when it comes to characters who can get in my head, which really messes with me more than the player sometimes; but how can you know for sure? If it becomes a long set...finding answers to this can get really blurry and complicated. Then again, I'm not really an expert in playing long sets, so if you have advice on that, maybe it'd clear my assumptions.

Hmm... lol, I just want to be able to beat mostly good, competent Kazuya's in a consistent manner you know!?

I unfortunately don't have any tips for long sets since... Deathmatch is dead in T8, and I'm not going out of my way to run practice FT30 in a game that I'm unfortunately not a big fan of.

Only thing I can say is that the most important thing in T8 is consistency, and that keeping it simple is the best way to achieve it. You seem to be the studious type when it comes to learning from your previous matches and stuff, so trusting your judgment and not second guessing the answers you've learned might be a good way to reduce the mental stacks.

Also since it's easy to forget... The amount of remaining rounds is important. When you're ahead, wait for your opponent to compromise themselves. There's no point in risking things, constantly trying to read lows, fish for big CH in the neutral or pressing a button at round start. If you don't have to think about all of that... You can press back, move around and chill which is good for the brain.
Same thing applies with the lifebar. We play small to get ahead, and when we are, we start being careful of the panick shenanigans. Obviously... You use the big buttons and situations when you're behind to try and get a comeback.

Segmenting your offensive and defensive gameplan in such a way is comfortable and effective to be more consistent in mostly every matchups. (and it's coming from a guy who's too lazy to lab characters)