Let's Talk: "I Tried To Make a Clever Tier List for Tekken 8" by Ghirlanda

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

As per usual, reasoning is in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24E6ZZNIIc0

Anyaaway, here's the list:

- Very Strong And Very Easy: Dragunov, Azucena, Feng, King
- Very Strong: Yoshimitsu, Nina, Xiaoyu, Reina, Jin
- Strong And Easy: Jun, Alisa, Leo, Victor, Lili, Eddy, Lars
- Strong: Lee, Law, Shaheen, Devil Jin, Kazuya, Hwoarang
- Viable And Easy: Jack, Claudio, Kuma, Asuka
- Viable: Paul, Zafina, Bryan, Steve, Raven, Leroy
- Not Competitive: Panda

As per always, discuss.

[Pelikan]

One of, if not the best tier list I've seen so far, and I have seen many. This is a tournament tier list by the way. So most people here might disagree because it doesn't necessarily reflect the average experience in ranked.

First off, the way he splits the category is much better adapted to the reality of Tekken 8 IMO ( no low tier chars, but a few Gods and A+/A tiers separated by small margins and execution requirements ).

The 2 small things I don't agree with, is :

- Xiaoyu below Nina . It is debatable though because both Xiaoyu and Nina did not perform well in all the major top T8 tournaments so far involving the best players in the world or just the NA ones ( TWT tourney in Canada, Korean ATLs, Pakistan tourneys, US tourneys like the 13 TNS contests so far, though one Xiaoyu made a final just once but lost)

- To not put Alisa in the top 10. Nina is objectively stronger on the paper, but in practice, Alisa just does much better in tournaments so far because she has much less workload on the player ( lower execution and precision required), better movement (stepping, distance closing) and her gameplan is more straightforward/simple as opposed to the complex approach of Nina ( she must have very different approaches depending the matchups).

A simpler gameplan against most chars is an advantage in a tournament, it means less hesitation and room for mistakes (mistakenly choosing the incorrect follow-ups) in a heavily offence biased yolo game with very short reaction time windows and first to two victories tournament context ( no time to learn to adapt your opponent's style) .

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

He explained that for Alisa, she doesn't have an easy way to force her own gameplan on you, so you can still comfortably play against her, unlike against someone like Azucena or Dragunov.

[Pelikan]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

He explained that for Alisa, she doesn't have an easy way to force her own gameplan on you, so you can still comfortably play against her, unlike against someone like Azucena or Dragunov.

True but that is where I disagree with him because despite that, players like KiriAkira or CuddleCore have proven the opposite in tournaments recently against top players, especially KiriAkira.

He shows how to dominate super aggressive chars like Dragunov, Feng or Asuka players with his Alisa by imposing his pressure on them on the counter attack ( maximizing Alisa's movement advantage) :

https://youtu.be/uu9sM0ibud8?t=2329

https://youtu.be/uu9sM0ibud8?t=3581

https://youtu.be/uu9sM0ibud8?t=5629


In the last one, it is only when Joka switched to Kazuya that KiriAkira switched to Jun.

Because Kazuya 50-50s are trickier to counter attack reliably and can be overwhelming ( casino) , so he chose Jun to pressure more safely and reliably to shut off Kaz's offence pre-emptively instead of allowing him to attack and rely on counter-attacking with Alisa. It worked really well.

I don't think Alisa is OP or anything, but just that she is in the top 10 IMHO and has decent matchups against some of the top tiers.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

I saw that tournament, KiraKira also tried to pick Alisa vs Kkokkoma's Feng and lost it then swapped back to Jun, that match was right after the match against Joka, so.....that kinda goes against what you were saying earlier.

Also, I wouldn't call that match he had against Joey as "dominate super aggressive chars" because if you watched it, Joey wasn't feeling it all the whole time, hesitating constantly for whatever reasons, I mean, when Alisa did DES f1+2, it's 0 on block, she followed with DES f1 which is 11f and Joey got hit while trying to jab. That's not an Alisa thing, that's Joey not playing his a-game. Was even seen when Joey stepped some of Alisa's moves and either not punishing them at all or doing the punisher really late causing it to get blocked, so yea....

EDIT: Also his match against KingRaeJr's Asuka was down to the wire, it could've went to either player, which is pretty much the exact opposite of "dominated".

[Pelikan]

Fair point but Kkokoma's Feng is another level, it is Korean difficulty in a North America tournament ( not the strongest region) . He could've played any decent char and won to be fair. ( Kirakira was heroic though, he was unlucky too)

If you look at how Kkokoma played Feng, super tight close range relentless pressure with out of this world defense and reactions, it is just another level. It is like watching prime Mike Tyson against a decent contender. Close but no cigar.

I 've seen Knee recently play the same exact style to shut off Jeondding's Eddy after Kkokoma's victory. The way Kkokoma played Feng and won this event might have inspired more players that will be on display this weekend for EVO Japan.

To come back to topic though. You wouldn't put Alisa in the top 10? How do you assess her strength yourself?

[Wipkonijntje]

Panda not competitive ??!!
best joke in the list. didn't Rangchu won a tournament with Panda?

rest of the list i can understand, just Hwoarang should be listed as easy

[Pelikan]

Originally posted by Wipkonijntje:

Panda not competitive ??!!
best joke in the list. didn't Rangchu won a tournament with Panda?

rest of the list i can understand, just Hwoarang should be listed as easy

He precised that Panda did not make sense to be chosen in a competitive setting in Tekken 8, because he is simply a weaker version of Kuma.

He did not say you cannot play him but that in the context of high level competition, if you choose a Bear in Tekken 8, the obivous choice is Kuma.

I agree with Hwoarang if you talk only about the execution reqs (controls). However at high level, he is not the easiest to play according to many pros. He is very strong though.

Speaking about Rangchu, he recently put Hwoarang in his top 5 characters of Tekken 8. ( see Spag youtube channel)

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Pelikan:

To come back to topic though. You wouldn't put Alisa in the top 10? How do you assess her strength yourself?

Hard to say really, I'd say she's a top 15 character, but wouldn't say top 10.

Her movement got a nerf, as she used to have a really strong backdash, now she's slightly bellow average, and while sure, side stepping got buffed and she has a really good one, the high tiers have stupid tracking, so while a strong asset, it's not something that warrants her to be a top 10.

She's strong, but just not on the level of the top 10 characters because she doesn't have any way to force big 50-50s. In pro play, her chainsaw sweep, aka Shut Down, was exclusively used as oki, not as a big mixup tool. Also her heat is kinda mid, like sure, chainsaws go brrr big chip damage, but...others can do it to, hell, not too long ago against a Jun I've had 80% of my HP bar as chip white health. Also, even tho Alisa can cause a lot of white health, she has no ways to remove it outside of RA, meanwhile Dragunov in heat can cause a lot of it AND also remove it, so if she doesn't kill you fast afterwards, you can get it all back, or well, most of it, especially if you manage to hit a heat engager. Lastly, her heat smash is trash, 2nd slowest in the game, but, unlike every other heat smash, you can panic tool against her's because going into Fly from it takes too long allowing you to RA, hopkick, armor, etc, which is why you almost never see it used.

[Wipkonijntje]

wonder who thought it was a good idea to let Hwoarang press the same buttong 4-5 times for 1 combo.

[Pelikan]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

Originally posted by Pelikan:

To come back to topic though. You wouldn't put Alisa in the top 10? How do you assess her strength yourself?

Hard to say really, I'd say she's a top 15 character, but wouldn't say top 10.

Her movement got a nerf, as she used to have a really strong backdash, now she's slightly bellow average, and while sure, side stepping got buffed and she has a really good one, the high tiers have stupid tracking, so while a strong asset, it's not something that warrants her to be a top 10.

She's strong, but just not on the level of the top 10 characters because she doesn't have any way to force big 50-50s. In pro play, her chainsaw sweep, aka Shut Down, was exclusively used as oki, not as a big mixup tool. Also her heat is kinda mid, like sure, chainsaws go brrr big chip damage, but...others can do it to, hell, not too long ago against a Jun I've had 80% of my HP bar as chip white health. Also, even tho Alisa can cause a lot of white health, she has no ways to remove it outside of RA, meanwhile Dragunov in heat can cause a lot of it AND also remove it, so if she doesn't kill you fast afterwards, you can get it all back, or well, most of it, especially if you manage to hit a heat engager. Lastly, her heat smash is trash, 2nd slowest in the game, but, unlike every other heat smash, you can panic tool against her's because going into Fly from it takes too long allowing you to RA, hopkick, armor, etc, which is why you almost never see it used.

Good points, I cannot argue with that. She definitely has some weaknesses.

It could be a case of the player elevating the character as Kirakira was really very impressive with Alisa. He only lost by one round against Kkokoma's Feng and that was right after switching char in a high stress situation.

I am excited for tomorrow's Evo Japan, I expect the tier list from Ghirlanda that you posted to be respected, with Drags, Fengs and Azucenas in the top 8. We will also see how some of the controversial ones like Xiaoyu and King will perform.

I have a feeling Reina will do well, not sure why. I think she is underrated currently.

[Zagryzaec]

If panda noncompetitive where does her insane winrate comes from ?
Dragunov very easy? Easy to what? Get launched for no reward? King very strong and very easy? He may be strong but 🚫 r very easy.

If we talk about very easy it's auto aim and autoperfprm characters - Alisa, Feng, Lars, victor Eddy and so on.

[kiteless 凧無し]

tier list videos are just easy ad revenue and are churned out for said reason

if you take them seriously.. well you got played

[Zako]

dang ghirlanda,brings back memories,one of the first top players who said i had potential..
his katarina was proper nasty,never seen anything like it.

back when the game was good,the nostalgia...anyway good tier list

[Pelikan]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

If panda noncompetitive where does her insane winrate comes from ?
Dragunov very easy? Easy to what? Get launched for no reward? King very strong and very easy? He may be strong but 🚫 r very easy.

If we talk about very easy it's auto aim and autoperfprm characters - Alisa, Feng, Lars, victor Eddy and so on.

From the lack of matchup knowledge.

Kuma has superior win rate to Panda ( april 2024 stats ) :

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fa-brief-look-at-the-tekken-8-metagame-april-2024-edition-v0-md7xq3f5ygtc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1000%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7fbccd76863cd596d568a222c66f62b3d96ba700

Dragunov is universally recognized as the God of Tekken 8 by nearly 100% of the pro community, to such an extent that it is not even for debate at this point. His whole kit is completely broken. He is also the most successful tournament character so far with Azucena.

What do you mean launched for no reward? He is the character that has the most beneficial risk/reward ratio.

On top of this he has the best lows in the game, some of the best frames on block in the game, one of the highest combo and wall combo damage in the game, the best reversals, the most complete throw game with Nina after King, some of the best step in the game after Lili and Reina, back4 that hits grounded, 10 frames CH etc..

I respect your opinion if you truly believe this, I am not looking to change it, but there is one thing that we should agree on : your opinion of Dragunov is very, very, very controversial :)

One thing where I agree with you now : Yes I would personally put Alisa top 10 but anyway, the difference between 8th,9th and 15th best char is very small. For me, there are a few Gods, at least 3 of them including Drag, and then there is the rest of the cast IMO.

Lars is also insanely strong based on online win ratio ( all ranks stats and beyond blue ranks stats, he is stable with very high win ratio) , however online ranked win ratio is not everything, because in tournament ( highest level, where the closest to the maximum potential of characters is shown ), Lars did not do well so far. Maybe it will change in the future though.

[Castyles]

I disagree. Opinion from a casual who plays mostly offline with all the characters and is still on the orange ranks, in no particular order:

- Very strong and very easy BECAUSE THEY'RE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ BROKEN: Dragunov, King.
-Very strong and easy: Feng, Kuma, Panda, Eddy, Law, Jun, Victor, Alisa, Lars.
-Very strong: Kazuya, Jin, Leo, Hwoarang, Shaheen, Devil Jin, Reina, Nina, Bryan, Lee.
Very strong but hard: Xiaoyu, Yoshimitsu.
Viable and easy: Jack, Raven, Paul, Lili.
Not competitive: Claudio, Zafina, Steve, Leroy, Asuka.