Why is Leroy so terrible?

[Mac Tonight]

I've played about 100 matches with him, and to be honest, it seems like he's been purposely made as terrible as humanly possible. Between his awful frames (minus on almost everything he does, sometimes even on hit) and bad damage, it's like the developers didn't want to put him in the game, but did because..... ?

Help me out here. I'm basically stuck blocking for 15+ seconds while other characters pressure with absurd + on block moves, and if I make one mistake, ONE, then I lose my turn and go back to blocking for a year (if I don't get launched before that). This is a massive, glaring imbalance that needs to be corrected. If you want an aggressive game, that's fine, just don't port defensive characters into it, gut their tools, give them nothing of consequence, and tell them to have a nice day.

/rant

[Make otgf -9 pls]

Karma

[=\[P]/=]

try Shaheen, then back to Leroy, you will love Leroy more

[Sopping Circumcision]

id like a buff but i still have fun and win plenty of matches with leroy

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von T1g3r:

turns out wingchun aint that geat in a fight

It ain't that geat, bro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9YdSFS8Ejc

Warrior heart of a lion, but fighting skills of a turkey.

[Mac Tonight]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Be_Proud (Heritage):

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mac Tonight:

People aren't saying he's low tier just because he's not the nightmare fuel that was released in Tekken 7. Objectively, in training mode, he has some of the worst frames in the entire game (mostly minus or punishable after every option but a handful). Go look, and if after you've had a peak, tell me how he compares to someone like Nina, Jack, Victor, heck.. most of the cast. Steve is like the only character keeping him company at the bottom.

What moves we are talking about? His main moves are largely still intact. I have checked him out, not extensively, but the moves that are useable, and I don’t think it’d be hard to reach even gold ranks with the character. And I’m not exaggerating. He can completely open up players who are not ready for him and can take rounds from those unfamiliar with the matchup as well.

With precise & proper timing, movement, and defensive reads, the character can unleash some strong pressure or play turtle. Likewise, his low pokes are rather good and most are not that minus, so that alone could force more interactions with opponents to make mistakes.

df+1 (mid): i13 and -6 on block. As a staple mid check for a lot of characters, it tends to hover around the -3 range on block for most of the cast, except Leroy. You lose your turn if this is blocked.

db+4 (low): i17 and -15 on block/-4 on hit. A low that gives knockdown on CH, but only leads to a guaranteed d,b+2, 1+2.

b+1+2 (mid): i12 and -10 on block. Jab punishable, and leads to a CH launcher, but has very stubby range and heavy damage scaling.

b+3 (high): i22 and +8 on block. Very slow, and can be ducked or interrupted consistently, even at 2.7-2.8ish range by a lot of the cast. This move is so, so essential for Leroy's pressure, since +8 on block is massive for any character, let alone one who has so few plus on block options (especially since most of them are slow or outright terrible).

b+4 (mid): i17 and -9 on block. This move tracks decently well on both sides, but leads to nothing once again, on regular or CH. You just toss it to check sidestepping opponents, but again, if it's blocked, there goes your turn. This would be useless if Leroy wasn't so starved for good tracking moves.

d,b+2, 1+2 (low, low, low): Pitifully low damage on oki (15 - 17 range I believe), guaranteed off of very few setups that don't have better follow-up.

b+2 (parry high/mid): i4 start up, must be timed with each individual move, and regardless of whether you normal or blue spark it, the reward is awful for the risk, especially with CH throws in the game being so strong. Blue spark is a knockdown (and +5 damage) you get nothing off of, and regular leaves you at +6 (meanwhile, Feng can just B+3 for +6 on demand - I love Feng, but yall know this is some bs design comparatively speaking).

I could go on, but what I'm trying to establish here is that Leroy's moves are high risk/low reward or low risk/low reward (d,b+3), and he lacks the plus frames on block to bully his way past an opponent's guard. Unless you are the parry god, and never get thrown or stepped, you will usually be mashed out of your offence or spend a lot of your time in the ridiculous looping plus frames a lot of the cast has (or you can risk a SS/WS punish on a ducked high/mid mix).

I'm not going to downplay the good tools Leroy does have, as there are definitely some (honorable mention to d,b+3/Hermit b+4) in his kit, but a lot of his move list is straight up unusable, and punishable by death on block OR the loss of your turn in an instant. Poor tracking is also a thing with him, so there's that as well.

[Twitch: Amiral_Strogoff]

Because he's black, by the ancient hollywood rule book for a good movie he must die first.

[Be_Proud (Heritage)]

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write an entire essay on each move but I'll start with this first one (one of the most best moves in the game...d/f1), and then maybe get into detail with the rest later.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mac Tonight:

df+1 (mid): i13 and -6 on block. As a staple mid check for a lot of characters, it tends to hover around the -3 range on block for most of the cast, except Leroy. You lose your turn if this is blocked.

Characters with similar d/1 that is -6.

1. Devil Jin has a d/f1. It is -6 on block. A high extension that resets to neutral.

2. Bryan has d/f1 in d/f2,1. It is -6 on block. High extension -4. Mid -13, but ch launches.
Alisa has d/f1 is -6 on block. Has a high extension w/ +1, +6. Mid is -11, mini-combos.

3. King, like Bryan, uses his elbow in d/f2,1. It is i13 and will CH launch on first hit, but it is a high, and no extension. It's also -6 on block.

Characters with -5 d/f1.

1. Zafina's d/f1 is -5 on block and has 2 variations. The high one hits for a tail-spin, but that's it. The mid variation 2 mid extensions that are both -13 on block are not NC. The 3rd extension is delayable at least.

Characters with -4 d/f1.

1. Yoshimitsu's always has to be one of the odd-balls. His d/f1 is -4 on block. He has a high extension that will CH for a mini-combo, also has a mid 3rd extension, but it's -12 on block. Yoshimitsu's mid extension from d/f1 gives absolutely nothing as it literally pushes him too far away on hit, and it is also -12 on block.

Characters with -3 d/f1.

1. Azucena has d/f1 is -3, with a high string that jails. High follow up that resets neutral, or a mid-fake that is fuzzy-guardable. She can fake cancel into Libertador.

2. Asuka has d/f1 is -3 on block. High extension and a mid that is -12 on block and a CH launch.

3. Reina's d/f1 is -3 on block. She has a high extension that is -4 on block +7 on hit. It puts her close up, so it's your turn if it is blocked. Her mid extension puts her into heat, but is -14 ws, so you can get a really hard punish on her if you have an i14 ws launch.

[4. Jun has d/f1 is -3 on block, with high string that gives her free u/f1. She has a mid extension that is -11 on block, but she gets only a tail-spin and 17 damage.

5. Jin, like his mother, has d/f1 that is -3 on block with a high string that guarantees only 17 damage on hit as well. His mid string is completely fuzzy guardable and -12 on block.]

If you noticed, both Jin and Jun's is -3 block, but give not much reward for their extensions.


Characters with -2 d/f1.

1. Dragunov has one of better d/f1 at -2 on block, with a high extension that will launch on CH. No mid extension though.

2. Steve's d/f1 is -2, has a delayed high extension and a delayed mid one, or his standard NC high extension that is -6. The delayed mid is -10, but guarantees a mini-combo. The delayed high can reset into flicker pressure. It's okay.

3. Victor's d/f1 is -2. His high extension does only 14 extra damage and doesn't counter-hit at all.

Characters with -1 d/f1.

1. Hwoarang has a great d/f1 that is -1 on block, and with a mid extension that goes into LFS, but -2. However, the extension is quite dangerous if the opponent knows and can get Hwoarang killed.

2. Lars has d/f1 at -1 on block. But, no extensions at all.

3. Law has a d/f1 at -1 on block. He also has a cheesy 10 hit low, mid NC string that is -1 on hit, -7 on block, and it does 12 damage. But, that's it.

4. Lee has a d/f1 at -1 on block. He can use his 10-hit extension to total 21 damage, but if it gets blocked it's launch unlike Law's d/f1.

5. Leo's d/f1 is -1 on block. Has a high-extension that gives Leo a power-up and if the 2nd hit counter-hit, it guarantees a mini-combo. No mid extension though.

6. Lili, like Lars, has d/f1 that is i13 and -1 on block, but no extension.

7. Nina's d/f1 is -1 on block. She has a high extension that leads in her side-step game or ducking step. Gets a lot of mileage out of her d/f1 as a strong poking character.

8. Shaheen's d/f1 is -1, but no extension. Likewise, like Nina, Lee, and Law, he gets a lot of mileage with his poking style kit.


Characters without "proper" d/f1:

1. Claudio's d/f1 is b3 at -4 on block, with delayable mid at -12 on block

2. Feng does not i13 d/f1. No extension. It is neutral on block though.

3. Jack 8 does NOT have i13 d/f. He has i14 moves and i12 low though. You can use d/f1 at i14. It is -4 and has an extension at -11 that CH launches. Or his f1 which is -6 on block and has a 2nd high string with third mid extension. Not bad if you can catch opponent by surprise. Not i13 d/f1 though.

4. Kazuya does not have i13 d/f1, but uses d/f4,4. It is somewhat hit-confirmable, but both hits leave him at -9 on hit, or -4 if 2nd attack hits.

5/6. Kuma/Panda are probably the only characters in the game without an actual d/f1. The closest d/f1 they have is d/f1 at i15 with double extension at -11 or -14 ws on block. The 2nd hit is somewhat hit-confirmable and will guarantee a knockdown.

7. Paul does not have i13 d/f1. He uses d1 which is i14 and -9 on block. It has low or high extension, but very dangerous. It's a great round-ender though.

8. Raven does not have a i13 d/f1. His is i14 and is -2. No extensions.

9. Xiaoyu does not have a i13 d/f1. She has a i14 mid that is -4 if she remains standing, or -2 if she goes into BT.


Summary:
Now, what does this mean...why is Leroy's so different? Well..let's look at his d/f1.

Leroy has d/f1 that is -6 on block, a mid extension that is -9. It's quite dangerous and you will either eat a punish or a launch if it is blocked. However, it's not guaranteed. His is unique because it leaves him at a rock-paper-scissors for both himself and the opponent. Will Leroy parry, cancel to nimble shift, or try to counter-attack high-crush with HMT b4. Is the risk-reward worth it? Maybe, maybe not. But, it can cause the opponent to hesitate to attack. If they do, you can mix them with HMT. It is only +3 on hit, but at least you're plus and in HMT.

Leroy's d/f1 also has a high to mid extension. On paper, with its frames, and the fact that the 2nd hit doesn't guarantee a natural combo seems like trash. It's -10 on block, with the full string, only does 9 extra damage, but it's really awkward to punish due to the chain punches.

However, the interesting part is that d/f1, 1+2 becomes powered-up and the chip damage from it can pressure opponents to attack after the 2nd hit. And that is where the 3rd extension becomes important. I actually like this as it becomes a real mind-game.


TL:DR, Leroy has one of the most unique d/f1 in the game. It being -6 does not make it weak.

[Sharkofspace]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Leroy suffers from being a good character in a game where everyone else is broken as hell.

This. Leroy has to play 4D chess with time travel, while the rest of the roster gets to play Cookie Clicker.