Let's Talk: Alisa - The Gatekeeper Of Scrubs

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

So, after watching a lot of random Tekken videos on YouTube and reading a lot comments around both the forum and ScrubQuotes (haven't perused Reddit and Twitter much), there's one conclusion that's very obvious to me.

Alisa is the true gatekeeper of scrubs.

A properly played Alisa against someone who knows the match-up is the most fundamental character in the game right now, followed by Azucena and Lili.

Reality is, when you know her match-up, what's she gonna threaten you with? Pokes?

"but...but...but....full screen moves"

Ok, watch this Reina deal with my attempts at "full screen moves" in game 1.

https://youtu.be/ufitPZuVuQA

So yea, her "full screen moves" are obviously beaten by the ancients words of wisdown from the elder lords: "gid gud scrub"

Obviously the next scrub complaint is the following:

"but...but...but...chainsaws"

Ok, what about them? Are the moves less honest because they're with chainsaws or because of their porperties?

Take her DES d1 for example, i21 low, 20 damage and +4 on hit, -12 on block, no properties change on ch, does high crush but can only be done in a stance, and compared it to Kazuya's d/b4 which is i20 low, 18 damage and +4 on hit, -12 on block, 21 damage and +17g on ch, no high crush but also no stance required. Is Alisa's move "less honest" than Kazuya's solely because it's done with a chainsaw? When looking at it's properties, it's more or less equal to Kazuya's d/b4, where the main difference being that it trades counterhit properties and 1 frame of speed for high crushing capabilities.

So to some of you guys, a move is cheap solely because of the animation? Man, that's some sore loser vibes right there.

"no...no...no no no no, Alisa is cheap because her chainsaws have a mix-up"

Ok, Kazuya is Mr. Casino personified yet you aren't crying about his mix-up being "cheap" or "less honest", so what's so different about Alisa's mix-up that you must cry about her specifically?

"but...but...but you can side step Kazuya's mix-up"

Yea, and you can also side Alisa's chainsaw mix-up, I don't see the issue.

"but...but...but she has moves in that chainsaw stance to deal with steppers, ha"

Ok, so does Kazuya with wavu wavu, what's that homing kick? ws3? There's also ws1+2 if I recall correctly that also deals with steppers quite nicely. I don't know his inputs, and beside having moves that deal with steppers, wavu wavu itself realigns with the opponent, and let's not forget Dorya, where if you only step, the move still tracks, you need to side walk it.

"but...but...but....someone needs to tell you that you can step Alisa's chainsaws"

Ok, and you're born with the knowledge that you can step Kazuya's vortex? Someone has to tell it to you as well, or well, you can lab, which also applies to Alisa.

Just like how there's no one single solution to deal with Alisa's chainsaws, there's no one single solution to deal with Kazuya's vortex. But you're crying about one for not being honest while praising the other to high heavens, because....it's done with chainsaws?

And that's why Alisa is the ultimate gatekeep when it comes to scrubs. All the things people cry about about her can be solved with the wise words of the elder lords, "git gud scrub". Once you learned the match-up, Alisa no longer has anything to threaten you with beside pokes and her chainsaws become a mind game, which apparently, you that keep crying about her, want the most from the game, mind games.

Nobody who actually labbed Alisa or is at an actual high level, not the "I reached Fujin" (which honestly doesn't really feel like an achievement rn...) doesn't consider her a dishonest, cheap and gimmicky character, a good bunch of them even want to pick her up to improve their neutral game and fundamentals because that's what the character is at that point, the most fundamental character in the game.

Once you get good at the game, you're able to see Alisa for what she truly is, while the ones crying about her are not even close to the point of actually being good yet.

[=\[P]/=]

i got beaten hard my Alisa chainsaw yesterday, went to replay, and try side walk, block the mid/high then jab her out of the stance, both of them works

the chainsaw's properties isn't OP
it just the animation/effect does intimidate

[C1REX]

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

[LuckyRaphi]

On low level she's an easy to learn cheese character, if you don't know the frames of her chainsaw moves you will have a bad time. She also has some good long range moves, mixups and high crushes which are dishonest, I guess?

Idk what honest even means, especially in the context of kazuya. He has difficult inputs but his gameplay is pure cheese with the mixups and long range electrics.

At high level pretty much every character is much more fundamental and safe, which makes them more honest. You cant just do a full screen super boot into mixup like in orange, they will sidestep or jab you out.

[Castyles]

Just an Alisa user downplaying their main because they fear a nerf. Move along, guys. Nothing to see here.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by LuckyRaphi:

On low level she's an easy to learn cheese character, if you don't know the frames of her chainsaw moves you will have a bad time. She also has some good long range moves, mixups and high crushes which are dishonest, I guess?

Idk what honest even means, especially in the context of kazuya. He has difficult inputs but his gameplay is pure cheese with the mixups and long range electrics.

At high level pretty much every character is much more fundamental and safe, which makes them more honest. You cant just do a full screen super boot into mixup like in orange, they will sidestep or jab you out.

The main difference is, those other characters don't fully lose aspects of their kit, they just have to be smart with using them, Alisa loses her fly stances and even her wr moves have to be done from much much closer because both options can be walked, unlike say Dragunov who can mix in a homing move via his wr3 with his wr2 so even at longer ranges it still has to be respected.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

[Wipkonijntje]

rofl, this post made my day, thx OP i love u^^

[Sharkofspace]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

OP hardstuck purple with Alisa of all characters trying to tell us that his character isn't actually strong and that the rank he can't reach isn't actually impressive.

Embarrassing thread.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

OP hardstuck purple with Alisa of all characters trying to tell us that his character isn't actually strong and that the rank he can't reach isn't actually impressive.

Embarrassing thread.

And where you got that I'm hardstuck Ruler? I got Fujin the very next day after that that Reina match. I just found it fun that people cry about Alisa's long range stuff so I decided to record that match.

And if you're saying that that match was the reason you think I'm hardstuck, if you did watch the whole thing, I won it :p

[LuckyRaphi]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

Top 3% players is high rank. Just cause you can beat fujins doesn't make them bad.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by LuckyRaphi:

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

Top 3% players is high rank. Just cause you can beat fujins doesn't make them bad.

Have you seen Fujins play tho?

Fujin right now is a very very mixed bag, where you have some actually decent players, then you have some ♥♥♥♥♥ that I can't even understand how they made it past Yellow rank...

EDIT: This is a replay from a few days ago, do let me know if my opponent truly is "good" and "high rank" just because he's Fujin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3e8r5TTB7o

I recorded a mirror match because of the thread's theme.

[C1REX]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

Anything from blue to the end I guess.
I’m in blue so it can’t be very high as I’m trash but I’ve seen people in gold ranks using chainsaws successfully.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by C1REX:

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

Anything from blue to the end I guess.
I’m in blue so it can’t be very high as I’m trash but I’ve seen people in gold ranks using chainsaws successfully.

Using successfully and gimmicking with them are two different things.

Once your opponent knows how to counter the chainsaws, it becomes quite the mind game where you have more to lose than to win because your stuff can be stepped, backdashed or crushed and you die if that happens, but the reward isn't anywhere close to that risk.

[Zagryzaec]

Originally posted by C.C. スパークル:

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

And what are the high ranks according to you? Because I assure you it's not Fujin.

Then why do you struggle in ruler? Why are you even in ruler to begin with?

Originally posted by C1REX:

As an Alisa user I can tell that the chainsaws work against any level of players and it’s her most powerful tool.

That's a honest Alisa main.

Now a few explanations that you failed to understand.

but...but...but....full screen moves"

Ok, watch this Reina deal with my attempts at "full screen moves" in game 1.

It's not about just throwing them in the open but even this solve the distance problem for you.

You see playing old school characters you are supposed to actually measure distance toward your character. And then attack with appropriate move. Remember as you said Me using long range moves of Dragunov to advance on long distance and short range moves close?

Alisa take this part out of equation allowing you just to press move and opponent MUST actvto make those moves fail. When in dragunovs case his wr2 will often just won't reach his opponent naturally.

Another point of basic long range moves that you don't understand since you never played old school Tekken character is that they used to punish random whiffs reflectory.

Do you have any idea on how many matches I lost just because my df2 just wouldn't reach opponent in situations where most other characters moves would definitely reach? You can just react with moves like Kuni dagger or Alisa basic long range moves as a response on whiff that should get unpunishable bait or just movement and you will STILL get your standard on hit situation.


In otter words you completely put the burden of playing on shoulders of your opponent. He must move properly, you don't he must read your mixups you don't (you out of range.) he must sidestep/walk.

Even better - for many characters have space based evasion like kempo, kings jump, dragunovs mass elbow, Lidia backjump, serafino homing mid, Lars spinning and so on. And Alisa's ♥♥♥♥ completely solve this particularly hard for many characters aspect of the game from equation.

It's EASY to play because Alisa DOES IT FOR YOU. Thats what people are talking about to you. And your "you just have to" doesn't work because even if you step it you hay not even reach her as she is just fly by you into background.

That's how she carries players (one if the ways) and it's astonishing that you who think h understand Tekken doesn't understand this simple truths.

Shw can do what others can't do at all or have to put a lot of effort and training to perform.

For example for my Dragunov there are several options to punish on longer ranges. And that means that in zero frames I must determine proper option and then execute it because it can be done from a stance. And you can do "same few moves" as you refered to them talking about myriad stat. And in close range a ton of my standard punishes DOESNT WORK AT ALL.

I can't punish players on their -14 counterhits or some -15 because my natural punishments would miss in those cases, including the one that was used in Tekken 7, so it's even worse fighting with habit constantly.

Having ability to reach your opponent independent of range is a massive advantage age and fool-carry measure.

Although in Tekken 7late dlc and Tekken 8 it's mitigated for many characters. For example mishimas got their long range fist into pressure that significantly changed their characters. But not Dragunov for example.

[Zagryzaec]

"but...but...but...chainsaws"

Ok, what about them? Are the moves less honest because they're with chainsaws or because of their porperties?

Take her DES d1 for example, i21 low, 20 damage and +4 on hit, -12 on block, no properties change on ch, does high crush but can only be done in a stance, and compared it to Kazuya's d/b4 which is i20 low, 18 damage and +4 on hit, -12 on block, 21 damage and +17g on ch, no high crush but also no stance required. Is Alisa's move "less honest" than Kazuya's solely because it's done with a chainsaw? When looking at it's properties, it's more or less equal to Kazuya's d/b4, where the main difference being that it trades counterhit properties and 1 frame of speed for high crushing capabilities.

So to some of you guys, a move is cheap solely because of the animation? Man, that's some sore loser vibes right there.

Yes - they have unique properties. Like a multihit properties that protect you even when you miss completely from retaliation unless i exactly labbed it and here we come to her second strenght.

while bieng not very popular character (but a character with extremely high winrate) she is a LAB CHARACTER. you HAVE to lab her. You HAVE to lab her chainsaws EVEN TO ASSESS wether they actually honest. and everybody labbing reina everybody labbing victor everybody labbing dragunov even though guy is so honest there is nothing to even lab. so you can enjoy your fool proof lab character for quite a while yet.

And when you lab her chainsaw you must also lab her additional stances which are actually pretty strong too. or was.

you know the funny part? they even changed animations for her chainsaws from tekken 7 so if you had any kind of memory labbing her - congratulation - now its working AGAINST you.

this prolonged multihit UNIQUE property really serves as strong protection both from retaliating and labbing her in match that is the basis for how players feel that her chainsaws are way outside of normal power level.

maybe if alisa was purely chainsaw character those wouldnt be regarded so broken but with so much in her kit and so easy to play it definitely just an icing on the cake.

and dragunovs moves that put him on plus are 20 frames of hard execution. Your coms from pressing a button and 13? 11? that high?

And other broken aspect is how much multihit affect chip damage both for you and opponent. especially in heat.

and dont mess those moves with kazuya db4 - its a single hit with low range and if he misses he is open for counterattack launch. he doesnt crash at all during it unlike your.

or you dont understand the value of crashing capabilities for i 20 moves? how oblivious can you really be, those moves are incomparable.

Range, crashing, multihit, inability to retaliate, nesesity to lab just to know the options. SAGASE! its all in the chainsaw. and his db4 doesnt start as a powercrush.