Tekken 8 Jin

[Beyond]

I would like to start this topic by saying that I'd rather have a healthy discussion here.

Opinion: Jin is weak

Jin's strong side

• Increased Reach

  Jin in T8 has increased reach, compared to his T7 counter part. His jab reach farther, his 2,1 string has better reach, his df1 has better reach, his 1+2 has much better reach than in T7.
  His ff4 from a pressure tool was exchanged to a knockdown mid with awesome reach. His d2 is a great low that can reach far away and move you closer to the enemy at the same time.
  

• Throw Game

  Like in previous Tekken games, Jin has 3 command throws that can be mixed:
  Tidal Wave (uf1+2)
  =1+2 break, Shun Ren Dan (df2+3)=2 break, and Complicated Wire(qcb1+3)=1 break.
  

  Wind Hook Fist

  WHF now launches even on normal hit, which is nice because you can delay it now and still get a combo, it no longer knocks down, like in Tekken 7, which simplifies the character.
  

  Launching Awakened Spinning Demon

  During Heat mode you can activate his Awakened Power Stance (db1+2) and on hit or counter hit get access to Mishima style moves. His first hit of hellsweep launches and allows you to get a full combo off a low.
  

• Good punishment tools

  Jin has great arsenal of punishment tools. His 10f punish 1,4 now doesn't knock down on hit, but instead leaves them standing for a mixup with his Zanshin stance (Jin is +14 on hit).
  His 12f punishment is now 2 moves: 1+2 (a great heat engager, leaves standing when entering heat for mixup, Jin is +17 after hitting) and b1,2 (knocks down on hit).
  13f remains the same with df1,4 or standing 4
  For 14f he has Electric Wind Hook Fist (cd2, just frame) or f1+2.
  For 15f it's either a Hop Kick (uf4) or Double Lift Kick (d3+4)

What's the issue?
Jin has no pressure in this verion of this game, as it currently stands.

Allow me to elaborate: almost all interactions with Jin on block leave the opponent in +, either completely giving the turn to them, or allowing them to sidestep or crush highs and mids.

The list of moves that leave Jin in - frames:

• 1, 2 (0, -3, can transition to Zanshin)
  
• df1,4 (-3, then -9 on second hit, also duckable for risky mixup with a mid that leaves Jin at -12)
  
• 1, 4 (0, then -9, can transition to Zanshin)
  
• f3, 1 (-16, then -12, a heat engager, can be hit confirmed; can transition to Zanshin)
  
• f3, 3 (-16, then -11, punishment can be evaded by pressing back for a back step; the second hit is high; can transition to Zanshin)
  
• standing 4 (-9, can lead to +13 situation on couter hit either for guaranteed heat engager or df1,4)
  
• b2, 1 (-9, hit confirmable after first hit)
  
• 2,1 (0, -3 on second hit, can lead to a counter hit knockdown with 4 followup or [4,4] for guaranteed electric cd1)
  
• 2, 1, 4 (same as before, but the third hit is -9)
  
• ff3 (-4, launcher, but it's no longer 0, you lose your turn)
  
• ff2 (-8, great heat engager with great range, but it creates no pressure, solely for whifpunisshing or mixing highs/lows with mids; at the wall, you lose your turn entirely because the enemy is in your face)
  
• ff4 (-7, at the wall, you lose your turn entirely because the enemy is in your face)
  
• uf3, u3 or ub3 (-9, great low crushing mid with ch launch properties)
  
• b4 (-7, great mid with a little bit of backsway, knocks down on hit)
  
• bf 2, 1 (-7, then -5; first hit no longer launches on counter hit, second hit can be ducked or mixed with bf2,3; can transition to Zanshin)
  
• bf2, 3 (-7, then -9; can transition to Zanshin)
  
• f4 (-8, due to great reach and ch properties is one on the most infamous Jin moves; linear and can be sidestepped; can transition to Zan)
  
• df2 (-9 on hit, great addition to Jin's tools, a tracking mid that gives + frames on hit; can transition to Zanshin)
  
• b1,2 (-9, -10, second hit is high, can be ducked and no mixup)
  
• cd3 or Zanshin 3 (-9, used to be a great tracking move that launches on ch, now only wallsplats)
  
• df3 (-8, great and quick 13f keepout mid)
  
• b3, 2 (-6, -9, can try and catch people pressing with this, New Tactics +21 on hit at the wall)
  
• ws 1, 2 (-6, -8, second hit can be delayed, good for cathing people pressing; can transtion to Zanshin)
  
• ws 4, 4 (-3, -7, second hit high, can be delayed)

All the moves that I've listed are the moves you usually use in neutral to fish for counter hits, create pressure or fish for opportunities. All these interactions leave you in heavy minus, mostly. While you are safe, you no longer create pressure and give up your turn.

Zanshin stance

From my hours of playing the game is clear that this game is heavily stance inclined: Law has easier time entering DSS, Jack has a stance, everyone has a stance or two these days.

Jin's stance is quite interesting because it is a complete guessing game.
There are several options you could go for when in Zanshin:

• Highs

  - 2 (-5, armoured and tracking; enter heat on hit)
  - 3+4 (high, covers great distance, leaves you in +9 on hit, but leaves you fairly away; can be sidestepped and knocks down on hit; also New Tactics)
  

• Mids

  - u1 (-16, beats every challenge option to Zan, but is launch punishible)
  - 1, 2 (-3, then -12, hit confirmable, wallsplats and knocks down on hit)
  - 3 (was discussed earlier)
  - 4 (+2~7, depending on where you land i.e. the lower to the ground you strike on block, the more plus you are; steppable, very linear; knock down on hit)
  

• Lows

  - 1+2 (-14, gives you decent chunk of damage with no recoverable health, has surprisingly good range because Jin moves forward with the move; tracks surprisingly well to Jin's weak side, actually it's kind of funny how he chases the opponents toes)

What is boils down to is essentially whether the opponents respects you or not. If you are plus, you can go do stuff, you enter Zanshin on block from any string, you can risk it and let it rip with u2 or 1+2 (u2 crushes everything and 1+2 crushes highs and maybe some higher mids). The rest of the moves get beaten even if Jin is +4 (you can test it by pressing 3, 4 string, enter Zan and try to challenge with a jab or 12-13 frame mid).
Even at +4, u2 trades with a jab, so he lauches you, but gets knocked out of the air.

His stance is weak and the mixup game is non-existent since everything can be challenged, depending on frames (example: 2,4 leaves Jin negavitve, after entering Zanshin you try to beat everything with u2 to risk it all, you get beaten by standing 4. Jabs whiff, but something slower, like 12-13 frames beat every option he has).

When it all comes to fruition

As a result, you get a charcater, who gives up his turn every block the opponent does in neutral, there are a handful of moves that give Jin + frames and they all have their issues. This leads to harder times applying his strenghths, like throw game for example.

His parry has been nerfed, or at least it feels that way, the window is narrower now and he recovers slightly longer. It is still a great tool with infinite skill ceiling though.

Jin is a defensive character in a highly offensive game. That is not to say that you cannot play him aggresively, but with what I've experienced so far, it feels daunting at times.

I am not a professional player or player with great achievements behind my back, nor do I claim that I know everything about the character after about 1 week of his release.

This wall of text is the way I see the situation and I invite you, the reader, to give your two cents on the situation. (1400 word essay, btw)

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

I am pretty sure many many players are concerned about Jin's current state?

But I have not played enough to know much or have an opinion on it.

[Beyond]

I haven't been following CBT and Network test much, but the general consensus was the Jin was extremely powerful. He looks flashy, but the risk/reward ratio and the difficulty make me raise eyebrows at times.

That is not to say that he is bottom tier or unplayable, he just feels very strange, especially after playing him in T7.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

But from reading this...

He seems to have everything.

Why consider him weak?

[AvidExpert]

Jin is weak? Are you FR?

I am a JIn main in T7 for a Year now maining him in T8.

He actually makes release Leroy and Kuni look fine asf np.

Also one of the weaknesses in T7 Jin was he was always neutral to +3 only on block or hit.

His only real "accessible" frametrap was 1 3~3 t wall.

The fact he even has a variety of frametraps atm is insane.

Jin plays around strong neutral game and locking people in, especially with 2,1,4 and Db 4/d4 and a lot of SS.

Now he can bunga and all of his neutral/key tools are upgraded.

Da fuq.

Also in this game it seems you don't lose your turn until -6.

in Tekken 7 it was -5.

So this "you lose your turn because you're not neutral" is crazy.

[Beyond]

Originally posted by SEATEK The_LEFTY:

But from reading this...

He seems to have everything.

Why consider him weak?

He lacks meaningful counter hit tools. Doesn't mean he has to have any, but from my experience what essentially happening is: you get your turn, you apply some pressure with a string or move that ends in minus or do wavu into mixup (all mid options leave you at -8 or -9) and you let the other player play. The only +frame option is an electric. Ff3 is -4 on block and leave opponent standing.

His hellsweep is alright, it gives you floor break and gives opponent recoverable health.

He lost his ff4 which gave you +4 on hit, left opponent crouching, but was susceptible to sidestep. He lost zanshin 1+2 which would crush highs and give you the most damaging combos in the game.

Since now, most options are heavy minus or leave you far away, the only way to safely apply throw mixup is Zanshin 4, which is linear and can be stepped or can be beaten out of.

He gained some, he lost some, that's for sure, but his gameplan now is to react to the opponent, block/duck/step and punish -> apply Zanshin on successful punish or wavu mixup on okizeme.

[Sharrayzen]

Jin is both strong and easy to play in Tekken 8. At this state of the game, I would never consider Jin 'weak' or even 'average'.

[Beyond]

Originally posted by Davii:

Jin is weak? Are you FR?

I am a JIn main in T7 for a Year now maining him in T8.

He actually makes release Leroy and Kuni look fine asf np.

Also one of the weaknesses in T7 Jin was he was always neutral to +3 only on block or hit.

His only real "accessible" frametrap was 1 3~3 t wall.

The fact he even has a variety of frametraps atm is insane.

Jin plays around strong neutral game and locking people in, especially with 2,1,4 and Db 4/d4 and a lot of SS.

Now he can bunga and all of his neutral/key tools are upgraded.

Da fuq.

Also in this game it seems you don't lose your turn until -6.

in Tekken 7 it was -5.

So this "you lose your turn because you're not neutral" is crazy.

Have you read the post? Most of the options I listed are -8 or higher.

[AvidExpert]

Originally posted by Beyond:

Originally posted by SEATEK The_LEFTY:

But from reading this...

He seems to have everything.

Why consider him weak?

He lacks meaningful counter hit tools. Doesn't mean he has to have any, but from my experience what essentially happening is: you get your turn, you apply some pressure with a string or move that ends in minus or do wavu into mixup (all mid options leave you at -8 or -9) and you let the other player play. The only +frame option is an electric. Ff3 is -4 on block and leave opponent standing.

His hellsweep is alright, it gives you floor break and gives opponent recoverable health.

He lost his ff4 which gave you +4 on hit, left opponent crouching, but was susceptible to sidestep. He lost zanshin 1+2 which would crush highs and give you the most damaging combos in the game.

Since now, most options are heavy minus or leave you far away, the only way to safely apply throw mixup is Zanshin 4, which is linear and can be stepped or can be beaten out of.

He gained some, he lost some, that's for sure, but his gameplan now is to react to the opponent, block/duck/step and punish -> apply Zanshin on successful punish or wavu mixup on okizeme.

You have:

D2.
F4.
DF2 (Yes you can hit confirm this too)
4 into 1+2 for heat engage into straight up 50/50.
Zen 3.
Wavu ws 3.
Electric.
Normal EWHF now.
DB4 which confirms D2 or CD1.
2,1,4 now CH on last hit into knockdown for CD1 followup or wallsplat for full laser scraper, or other wall enders into INSANE oki.
etc.
FF2 now has insane tracking, infinite range and is a normal hit heat engager and a wall splat and a heat dash for + frames.

My god bro.

"Not got CH game"?

P.s. you talk about grab game.

Grab game isn't even applicable at high rank, everyone breaks everything including full command grab chars 95% success ratio.

Please don't make posts like this when your low rank.

I can get behind low rank issues, stress, problems etc.

But trying to make thesis on one of the most OP chars in Tekken and calling him weak because you're not capable at the game is insane.

[Beyond]

@Davii. tell me you haven't read without telling me you haven't read.

[AvidExpert]

Originally posted by Beyond:

@Davii. tell me you haven't read without telling me you haven't read.

Bro I play Jin and he is the easiest character in the game at the moment and by far the strongest.

I didn't even need to read your post to discern you were wrong about Jin, I did read anyway, just didn't need to.

You've done the equivalent of when that German kid made a buff Leroy post on release.

I also countered your posts point and all you have to say is "tell me you read without telling " bro be quiet and actually read my counter points and take them in, learn the game.

Stop yapping.

Tf you gonna do? Call me biased? I'm breezing through ranks using Jin who's my main since T7 now for a year.

Almost purple rank and I'm hardly playing ranked atm.

[Beyond]

You haven't addressed a single issue I raised in my post, then repeated my points about Jin and what makes him good in your reply and proceeded with an attempt to insult me/shut my mouth. And you obviously haven't read my post, because if you had, you would not have posted the same thing that has been previously said as a counter argument.

[AvidExpert]

Originally posted by Beyond:

You haven't addressed a single issue I raised in my post, then repeated my points about Jin and what makes him good in your reply and proceeded with an attempt to insult me/shut my mouth. And you obviously haven't read my post, because if you had, you would not have posted the same thing that has been previously said as a counter argument.

Bro I did address multiple things, you just chose not to read.

If you want to git gud, add me and I'll show you how to play Jin at high level and how busted he is.

General consensus from anyone that actually knows the game is him/DVJ/Dragonuv are in need of MAJOR MAJOR nerfs.

But Jin is in his own universe.

[Beyond]

Originally posted by Davii:

Bro I did address multiple things, you just chose not to read.

If you want to git gud, add me and I'll show you how to play Jin at high level and how busted he is.

General consensus from anyone that actually knows the game is him/DVJ/Dragonuv are in need of MAJOR MAJOR nerfs.

But Jin is in his own universe.

Entertain me and share with the world what has to be nerfed to get Jin down to the rest of the cast.

[Sharrayzen]

Davii is spitting straight facts.
Edit: This thread reminded me of the Jin thread on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1afjymi/jin_mains_seeing_him_go_from_advanced_tier_to/

[Beyond]

For the sake of the argument, I can compare apples to apples and take Reina as an example.

Her stance transition move where she throws a jab and then enters the stance is pretty fast and you cannot beat it. You either take a guess (duck/stand), her standing option leaves her at +1 and tracks. This string is also a natural heat engager, so it's an exceptional punishment tool with great range which is also safe and even +. If you try to challenge her stance with a jab in this situation, you trade, she get hit by a jab, you get hit by that homing high.

Jin's stance options are never in plus, there is always risk, even with the high option and everything can be challenged. If we take high option, there is a tracking armoured heat engager, but it is minus and you can jab challenge and still recover fast enough to block. You do not risk anything. At worst, you get hit by 1+2 low, at best, you float him out of the move or hit confirm 10f punish.