Does It Have Rollback?

[Majorita]

It's a no-buy without it since I could not even play TEKKEN 7 with people in the same country as me.

Also game releases on 26th, which is Australia Day. Not sure what the significance of that is.

[kiteless 凧無し]

Originally posted by HappyDroplets:

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

I don't think it's a coincidence that the worst and most unplayable connections I've had are always against Wifi players. I know someone always comes to bat for them in their defence the moment I use that term but you're not changing anything, wifi sucks for gaming

I disagree, I think its an issue of most regions bordering poor countries with less than ideal tech and infrastructure. I could swap to WiFi and just spoof wired and people wouldn't know the difference. When on wired my connection ms drops by maybe 2 or so. I don't lose packets on it either.

like I said, wifi sucks for gaming, I've seen enough evidence, you're not changing my mind

capcom bans wifi from their online sf6 tournaments btw, says everything.

https://sf.esports.capcom.com/cpt/rules/

2.8. Wireless connectivity (Wi-Fi) is prohibited. If a player is found to be using Wi-Fi, he/she will be suspended from the CPT competitions for that year.

Even SF6 with its stellar netcode knows Wi-Fi is crap

[Majorita]

In my experience if you have really good wifi (preferably same room as your receiver) it should never ever impact your online experience, I've played both wifi and wired (fibre > cisco rack router > gigabit ethernet atm) and my experience has always been pretty consistently the same, though I use like... relatively high end gear with a Ubiquiti wireless access point. I am sure if you're on like just the crappy pre-included wifi network that comes with your ISP provided router (like wireless N or whatever) and it's five rooms away through solid concrete and a kitchen, maybe that's not an ideal situation...

But I mean, if I can play like 99% of video games seamlessly, but one in particular (TEKKEN 7) is a great noticeable standout, is it likely that my network connection is at fault or does the game just have utter garbage trashfire netcode?

Heck I can play 'real' rollback games like GG XX accent core plus R, and others, with people from the other side of the world (is Scandinavia literally as far away from Australia as it is possible to be or what) and have a completely seamless experience.

But then I try T7 and it's like oh I can't even play KR or JP players that are on like 110ms to me, at all, and it's not even worth trying.

Then you look at SoulCal 6 and it's like oh hey wait a second here's a 3D fighting game that actually works online, it is not quite perfect but I can play people in NA or even some EU countries and at least complete the match without the urge to commit satsui no hado, and I get rematches so the player on the other end doesn't want to commit senpukyaku either.

Hmmmmm.

No! It's fine TEKKEN 7 is not at fault at all it's just my enterprise grade network + my ISP + ratio + get downvoted + accent core + R

--

Anyway, I made this thread because I am hoping I don't have to deal with that FFFFFFF garbage this time around.

[Kulagin]

Originally posted by Necropants:

It has rollback although it's an odd implementation of it to say the least.

Eh, no. The netcode is pretty default. They start to increase input delay at ping 100, but other than that, it's pretty barebones default and there's nothing special about it.

Do you know how it actually works? Tell us how you think it works and how different it is to what you'd learn at school and/or implemented yourself in your projects.

[Necropants]

Originally posted by Majorita:

Wait so does it have it or don't it have it? Only one can be true. Which is it?

No it's not that cut and dry .. Yes it does BUT It's not a traditional implementation which means Variable input delay is still a thing which kind of defeats the whole reason to have rollback in the first place. I did match up with a jin player on the other side of the world in the network test and he was teleporting all over the screen so it's definitely rollback to some degree but that match also was not playable at all.

I mean this is pretty well known at this point and it's been talked about at length, Even Tekken 7 has rollback netcode now and people argued about it for years because they didn't believe it did. Hell, even Harada was even hilariously a ♥♥♥♥ to one of the developers of killer instinct when he asked him about it on twitter. it's just a janky implementation of it and the rollback frames are restricted hence the meme "Tekken is 3"

Well, now it appears to be 6, so it's been improved but I think it's ultimately the same system.

Also Wifi will always be inferior and I can tell spoofed connections immediately it just feels unstable compared to a wired connection. Stop trying to excuse yourself cause you dont want to run a cable. the very nature of wifi means you will drop packets and the flow of information is not duplex. the different connections work fundamentally in a different way and wifi is inferior,

[Kulagin]

Originally posted by Patrick Wayne:

It's a lot harder to make a good rollback in 3d than 2d fighter.

No. They are like any other genre. It's a common misconception in a lot of the gamer's minds(which don't actually understand how games work and haven't programmed anything in their lives, so they don't understand what they're talking about at all) that 3D fighting games are special and not like other genres. But from a programming point of view they are just video games. They use the same engines, concepts, technologies and patterns as other fighting games. There is no special difference between Tekken 7 or 8 and Fortnite or Fortnite, they're just 4 Unreal Engine games.
I'll explain it to you: when the new data arrives over the network, what all real-time games do is:
On every game tick:
1. Reset game state back to last known state.
2. Replicate local player inputs as well as inputs of all other players since the last known state until the current game tick.
This includes going through every object important for gameplay and replicating the inputs on them. In the case of fighting games, it's usually 2 players. It doesn't matter if it's 2D or 3D.
And it is the case with Tekken: just replicate inputs since the last known state.
3. Save the current state to the array of last known states, so that when new data arrives you have your states saved to replicate from.

There are a lot of optimizations and variations that can be done to the netcode:
One of the problems with this code is that once you start to play at higher pings, like 80+, you start to notice the visual teleports of objects. That's because when new inputs arrive, they happened a few ticks in the past, so now when the object is updated to its' current state, you wasn't observing it for 4-5 ticks. You fix that with interpolation over time: instead of immediately updating object state to its' latest state, you do it smoothly over the period of next few frames. So, let's say if the input that came was from 5 ticks before, you can interpolate over the next 3 frames, so that the object gradually gets to its' new state. Of course, by then there will be multiple new inputs that come in, so you basically always do it: reset state, replicate, interpolate.
Then you can also always extrapolate to account for the next actions. Usually the games just do nothing. So, in the case with Tekken, the game just keeps rolling forward when no new inputs arrive and it keeps locally extrapolating the opponent's character since the last known state.

Word of advice to people: stop talking out of your asses if you haven't programmed a single thing in your life and haven't programmed this kind of systems with sync over the network in particular.

[Dydzio]

To bunch of people who dont know crap about this thing from IT point of view:

Wifi IS WORSE and there is no "but" to justify that. WIfi technology is half-duplex while wired allows full-duplex data flow. If you dont know what is OSI model, what is difference between TCP and UDP connection, what is CSMA/CA and CSMA/CD or what is crosstalk, idk why do you even think its good idea to talk ♥♥♥♥ about networking

[Kulagin]

Originally posted by Dydzio:

WIfi technology is half-duplex while wired allows full-duplex data flow.

That's not why wi-fi is problematic. Also, ethernet isn't just full-duplex, it also supports half-duplex as well. It makes 0 difference for ping in video games. Tested it between 2 stations in games like CSGO but also on my own projects, there is no measurable difference between half and full duplex modes for video games.

So it's not the half duplex mode that makes wifi worse, because it would show on the tests with ethernet controllers.

[Dydzio]

Originally posted by Kulagin:

Originally posted by Dydzio:

WIfi technology is half-duplex while wired allows full-duplex data flow.

That's not why wi-fi is problematic. Also, ethernet isn't just full-duplex, it also supports half-duplex as well. It makes 0 difference for ping in video games. Tested it between 2 stations in games like CSGO but also on my own projects, there is no measurable difference between half and full duplex modes for video games.

So it's not the half duplex mode that makes wifi worse, because it would show on the tests with ethernet controllers.

Right, for just gaming full duplex does not change much, but it is inferior in general and if people run some background tasks like streaming from console via wifi they may be realistically hindered. There are no technical advantages for using wifi.

The keyword you probably expect me to raise is "packet loss" - this is another reason why wifi gaming sucks - wired connection to router is more reliable here and gaming is pretty sensitive area here, where 1% packet loss is not welcome factor in games such as tekken.

[Shadow78]

Originally posted by Majorita:

It's a no-buy without it since I could not even play TEKKEN 7 with people in the same country as me.

Also game releases on 26th, which is Australia Day. Not sure what the significance of that is.

To answer your question OP, tekken 8 netcode has mixed review of good and bad, it slightly better than tekken 7 netcode but not better than SF6/Strive/KI rollback netcode level.

But it's has three rollback option in game settings
1-Graphics which is having smooth animations in cost of variable input delay (like delay-based netcode)
2-Standard which is basically like tekken 7 netcode
3-Responsive mode which having less input delay at the cost of having variable rollback happening like others games

Standard is set by default and the best solution is using responsive mode.

[Shadow78]

The problem is Bamco never talk about netcode and this is something they never value as a priority which is worrying.

So we have to see if it will make or break the game at release.

[kiteless 凧無し]

if people inserted the same amount of effort into setting up a wired connection as they did defending Wi-Fi the online playerbase would be so much better

[Dydzio]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

if people inserted the same amount of effort into setting up a wired connection as they did defending Wi-Fi the online playerbase would be so much better

yep, you can literally find tons of articles why wifi is never as good wired internet for gaming... unless you have $1 wired internet with horrible speed vs stealing your neighbours wifi

And rollback is better than in t7 that is for sure, question is if people will find it satisfying enough

[Kulagin]

Originally posted by Dydzio:

And rollback is better than in t7 that is for sure, question is if people will find it satisfying enough

The rollback itself(resetting the state and local replicaiton) is actually exactly the same as in T7. It's just in T7 the max rollback frames is set to be 3, once the game wants to roll back more than 3 frames, it starts to freeze and resync. And in T8 it's unlocked and can be any number of frames.
In T7 it starts to increase input lag at ping 82 but in T8 it starts to do it at ping 100.
Also in T7 it actually adds 1 frame of input lag even on offline connections: you have 1 frame of additional network lag offline in practice mode, and if you play online matches at ping 0.
In T8 it doesn't do it, so in T8 you have at least 1 frame less of input lag compared to T7, but on some connections more.
For example, on ping 85 you'll have 2 frames less input lag in T8 compared to T7.

[Kitneko]

Originally posted by Tyrone Biggums:

it has rollback and crossplay

crossplay with ps4/5?

[Shadow78]

Originally posted by Kitneko:

Originally posted by Tyrone Biggums:

it has rollback and crossplay

crossplay with ps4/5?

Crossplay with PS5 and XSX