Any More News About the Netcode?

[HighLanderPony]

This seems to be the elephant in the room that people tend to skirt around.

All I heard so far is that it wasn't great. Any news on that front?

Asking because as cool as the game looks it's all for naught for me if the online play is garbage.

[S☯wn-Lﺤuꁅhtǝr]

Originally posted by Schizm:

Originally posted by Sown-Laughter:

KI is 2.5D
Fightcade 2
Dreamcast Era didn't account for the same type of hitboxes as modern games.

There is more dimensional spacing between what whiffs and what does not.

Hit boxes don't matter in rollback netcode never has never will. Hit boxes are just objects in 3D space that detect if the enemies hurt box is inside it. Not sure why you insist on this point it doesn't mean anything.

Spacing doesn't matter also, I don't know how many times this has been stated to you but the only thing that matters is if the game is deterministic.

There is no difference between fightcade 2 3D games and Tekken as a 3D game this is something you have made up all.

3d FPSs who have far more complex movement and more variability work perfectly with rollback. Tekken 8 has rollback netcode its just a very poorly implemented version so pretending like its special and can't have it is just wrong.

Deterministic by how many frames, you have X Y Z you also have the timing at the start and after.

Those things matter and why the best they can do is a mix of both. You are talking about Squares vs Spheres. Its not as ""Simple"".

First person Shooters use placement of line of sight and tracking from where the shot was fired, you are comparing 2D mechanics in First person Shooters using Squares and hitscan. Not the same. you use 0 distance to map player shot its all upfront and fast, instant hit detection in most cases like COD.

2D fighters and First person Shooters are as instantly calculated, Tekken is not . you would have synchronization issues because of the timing differences.

So no Tekken 8 wont have rollback in the same way thats why its a mix of delay based and rollback.

[Schizm]

Originally posted by Sown-Laughter:

Originally posted by Schizm:

Hit boxes don't matter in rollback netcode never has never will. Hit boxes are just objects in 3D space that detect if the enemies hurt box is inside it. Not sure why you insist on this point it doesn't mean anything.

Spacing doesn't matter also, I don't know how many times this has been stated to you but the only thing that matters is if the game is deterministic.

There is no difference between fightcade 2 3D games and Tekken as a 3D game this is something you have made up all.

3d FPSs who have far more complex movement and more variability work perfectly with rollback. Tekken 8 has rollback netcode its just a very poorly implemented version so pretending like its special and can't have it is just wrong.

Deterministic by how many frames, you have X Y Z you also have the timing at the start and after.

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

I'm not reading the rest of your comment because you just fundamentally do not understand what your talking about.

Nothing you say makes any ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sense because it comes from a point of ignorance and a complete misunderstanding on how rollback words. We have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ networking engineers that says Tekken would work and that its not different.

Like just stop it dude, just admit you don't know what your talking about you dont need to defend the multi-million dollar company they don't care you exist.

Tekken 3 which has far more complex movement than modern Tekken has rollback on a beta build of Duck Station and it works fine. There is no excuse the only reason Tekken 8 doesn't have proper rollback netcode is because the developers or higher ups dont want to spend the time and money on developing it. Thats it, thats the reason.

I mean literally all you do is make ♥♥♥♥ up on the spot without providing any context with what your talking about.
What does

"2D fighters and First person Shooters are as instantly calculated, Tekken is not . you would have synchronization issues because of the timing differences."

Even mean? Nothing because its not true, Tekken does not handle ♥♥♥♥ differently lol this is something you have completely fabricated out of thin air.

[S☯wn-Lﺤuꁅhtǝr]

Originally posted by Schizm:

Originally posted by Sown-Laughter:

Deterministic by how many frames, you have X Y Z you also have the timing at the start and after.

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

I'm not reading the rest of your comment because you just fundamentally do not understand what your talking about.

Tekken 3 which has far more complex movement than modern Tekken

[Schizm]

Originally posted by Sown-Laughter:

Originally posted by Schizm:

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

I'm not reading the rest of your comment because you just fundamentally do not understand what your talking about.

Tekken 3 which has far more complex movement than modern Tekken

:feeling:

Thats hilarious you actually think modern Tekken games have more robust movement than Tekken 3.

Tekken 7 and 8 have nerfed and fundamentally slow down movement than anything that existed before it. The fact you dont know this speaks volumes.

[S☯wn-Lﺤuꁅhtǝr]

Originally posted by Schizm:

Originally posted by Sown-Laughter:

Thats hilarious you actually think modern Tekken games have more robust movement than Tekken 3.

Tekken 7 and 8 have nerfed and fundamentally slow down movement than anything that existed before it. The fact you dont know this speaks volumes.

Jank and unbalanced isn't advanced..
https://youtu.be/1RcfCOOJ3z4?t=7
https://youtu.be/PsN5wz8w19g yep sure looks like thats advanced mobility in T3!!

Behold T7 is inferior while Hehachi does the electric slide using only his toes..

And this is the Pinnacle
https://youtu.be/UzGoZY4t15g truelly perfection

[Schizm]

"Blocked User" a symphony to my eyes.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

I will confidently tell you that rollback could work in Tekken. 2D or 3D it really is not a huge difference. Proof that older games doing it in a 3D space is only the tip of the iceberg. Don't simp for Namco.

If a single game dev for SkullGirls (*Gasp 2D!) can do it- I think Namco could manage to atleast improve the netcode we currently have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yanKfSc1_Sc

Herp Derp

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NLe4IpdS1w

Nowhere does it say that GGPO can ONLY be used in 2D games.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/1kurbv/ggpo_netcode_could_it_work_with_other_game_genres/?rdt=41026

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/phko46/im_a_gamedev_with_a_question_about_ggpo/

And my Favorite:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/qz45g3/does_rollback_work_for_fully_3d_games_like_tekken/

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

From third link above:
Question: Can Tekken have GGPO?

"Yes. There is nothing special about a z-axis that changes how networking would work. Rollback is a generic concept that doesn't care what the game actually is, as long as it can savestate, load, and fast-forward.

Prediction isn't as fancy as you're thinking either. The only 'prediction' made is that the input on the next frame will be the same as the input on the last frame. Humans don't mash at 60Hz, so this turns out to be correct often enough that it would be impractical for anything fancy to actually outdo this."

"Yes

2D ones, are very limited in what actions you can do in the next frame or couple of frames

This is such a huge misunderstanding of the complexity of both types of fighters.

As the core of rollback is prediction so that it can keep things going, how well would it handle these kinds of things that are extremely hard to predict?

"Prediction" in rollback often equates to simply holding down the last input, which is usually block.

I mean, we have already working rollback for Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter 3tb on FightCade."

Here is what I believe SOWN is advocating- why "Tekken is 3" Is a thing and why many simp for Namco:

The inclusion of another access has no real effect on the capabilities of rollback in any way.

"However, something not being brought up here is the way that physics and effects can be effected by rollback, which is quite significant. In order for games like Strive or Mortal Kombat to have rollback in the way that they do, despite having 3D models, physics and effects, is because they're designed from a visual level for the purposes of rollback. Games like Tekken 7 aren't, so while they may have a certain amount of frames capable of being rolled back at once, like Tekken 7's 3, any more than that will create either visual or performance problems in the current manner that the system is designed."

So the according to Reddit- The overall issue is a graphical issue (meaning people bouncing around and certain moves / effects acting up) rather than being impossible.

It is possible.

Again, it can be done.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

So essentially, if a player would plug in a cable to improve stability / prevent the absurd Rollback artifacts, and GGPO would probably work fine without major changes.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/qz45g3/does_rollback_work_for_fully_3d_games_like_tekken/

Last one:

"The HARD basic requirement of getting a rollback to work on any arbitrary "P2P client simulated game" is to make the "simulation layer" fully deterministic (even in rollback + resimulation), which often involve a full physics engine rewrite (much simpler for 2D game) and ensure that all gameplay code produce a fully deterministic gamestate result. Most 3D physics engines use floating point (cannot ensure determinism across different machines/compilers/etc) and they usually prioritized performance over determinism. It sounds simple, but most fighting games that don't support rollback, mostly can't get their game to work deterministically during rollback + resimulation (small desync can easily cause significant change in gamestate result 10 frames in the future).

Also note that most games run at 60 fps (16.67 ms per frame), meaning that if a ping (round trip time) is more than 16.67 ms, you will almost always be in a prediction frame throughout the whole game (1-2 frame prediction shouldn’t be noticeable, unless you can move really fast in 1-2 frames). This has always been the case for all “network games”, but it's easier to hide in Server-Client architecture (just do “Snapshot Interpolation” or more advanced Overwatch style’s rollback).

There's also additional challenges including: performance (able to simulate N frames reroll per frame, simulating N frames of simulation within 16.67 ms), serialization (need to serialize all game/physics states. imagine Smash with lots of additional items.), floating point (in presentation layer, gameplay, physics code), clear separation of presentation layer, etc. These all required a really robust overall coding quality + architecture (easier if your game is really simple), gamedev are known for hacking things, so it's a really tough requirement. It's also some of the reasons why it's pretty difficult to add rollback support to an existing game.

source: I have ported the whole GGPO into my custom network library into another programming language for my p2p rollback game, and also wrote a 3D deterministic physics engine for it."

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

hmm... Crickets again.

[S☯wn-Lﺤuꁅhtǝr]

Originally posted by SEATEK The_LEFTY:

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NLe4IpdS1w

Nowhere does it say that GGPO can ONLY be used in 2D games.

Originally posted by SEATEK The_LEFTY:

I will confidently tell you that rollback could work in Tekken. 2D or 3D it really is not a huge difference. Proof that older games doing it in a 3D space is only the tip of the iceberg. Don't simp for Namco.

If a single game dev for SkullGirls (*Gasp 2D!) can do it- I think Namco could manage to atleast improve the netcode we currently have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yanKfSc1_Sc

Herp Derp

Herp derp?
I never said It couldn't be used in 3D games.
Older games have blocky square hitboxes where the legs down are like a single cube till the opponent kicks.

modern 3D Like SCVI and T7-8, use a gap for the head neck & shoulders its a body shape not Mokujin shaped

2D games However use the same type of area as Old 3D games.

If namco thought they could, they would have long ago just like when people complained "Why IS Lei Ru Long not inda roster REEE"!!

despite they already were not wanting to put him in the game going as far to have the announcer read Leis "Mysterious unnamed detective part".

If they could have by now, they would have cause clearly its what would sell the most..

They Hired Arksys to do the best they could, and refine it with more testing.
Clearly its not a EZ geegee hurp durp why didnt they??
its so ez just hire codRs.

Lo0k Lo0k Dragonz ball Ze has it ..

yes its a arksys game


Not sure why you have to be insulting others when explaining things despite unable to understand, Before and After from engine limitations, to changes around the hitbox over time.

If you want more Glitches where the leg phases through on a low sweep sure.

But you are assuming the same timings are workable as the old.

[S☯wn-Lﺤuꁅhtǝr]

Originally posted by SEATEK The_LEFTY:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/qz45g3/does_rollback_work_for_fully_3d_games_like_tekken/

Last one:

"The HARD basic requirement of getting a rollback to work on any arbitrary "P2P client simulated game" is to make the "simulation layer" fully deterministic (even in rollback + resimulation), which often involve a full physics engine rewrite (much simpler for 2D game) and ensure that all gameplay code produce a fully deterministic gamestate result. Most 3D physics engines use floating point (cannot ensure determinism across different machines/compilers/etc) and they usually prioritized performance over determinism. It sounds simple, but most fighting games that don't support rollback, mostly can't get their game to work deterministically during rollback + resimulation (small desync can easily cause significant change in gamestate result 10 frames in the future).

Also note that most games run at 60 fps (16.67 ms per frame), meaning that if a ping (round trip time) is more than 16.67 ms, you will almost always be in a prediction frame throughout the whole game (1-2 frame prediction shouldn’t be noticeable, unless you can move really fast in 1-2 frames). This has always been the case for all “network games”, but it's easier to hide in Server-Client architecture (just do “Snapshot Interpolation” or more advanced Overwatch style’s rollback).

There's also additional challenges including: performance (able to simulate N frames reroll per frame, simulating N frames of simulation within 16.67 ms), serialization (need to serialize all game/physics states. imagine Smash with lots of additional items.), floating point (in presentation layer, gameplay, physics code), clear separation of presentation layer, etc. These all required a really robust overall coding quality + architecture (easier if your game is really simple), gamedev are known for hacking things, so it's a really tough requirement. It's also some of the reasons why it's pretty difficult to add rollback support to an existing game.

source: I have ported the whole GGPO into my custom network library into another programming language for my p2p rollback game, and also wrote a 3D deterministic physics engine for it."

Goodie maybe arksys can hire him lets all get them to Namco Bandai yaay

This has always been the case for all “network games”, but it's easier to hide in Server-Client architecture

Great lets see if Namco is willing to waste money funding servers like Strive did?
no? Guess not