4x games need random maps

[The Renderer]

I know, map generation is hard, but you just can't have a strategy game with limited fixed maps, that will get old very quickly.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Actually this means procedural maps + fog of war.

Developer has mentioned this is a feature he can put on roadmap if enough sales are made.

Developer, there are highly positive reviews already so you should make this one as a priority imo, it will keep players interested!

[biceps always together!!]

Originally posted by Elindos Phar:

Actually this means procedural maps + fog of war.

Fog of war would not be a good addition to this game. Not every game needs to have the exact same set of features.

[Red Dragon]

Fog of war is not a good idea for this game imo, you need to have that info about how many cities and armies the opponent has otherwise it would severely devolve the experience. Random maps without FoW I can get behind but there are tons of maps and civs already, I don't get why someone can be bored already. Try the Canaanites on Scholar if you are bored (use custom win conditions, otherwise it's literally impossible).

[bobFromReboot]

This would be great.

[gwgardner]

+1 for a map generation feature.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Fog of war restores the concept of "exploration" instead of the one of "calculation".

There are people who are extremely good calculators so they need the unknown factor such as exploration to have game fun in a 4X game (4X does include exploration too), instead of just managing known elements.

I know people who ask this feature.
It will only affect the player, adding to the difficulty.

I know it does not fit entirely into Ozymandias but it does provide a very interesting thing in a game for replayability and mystery.

However, it will be an option anyway, one you can activate as well as random maps or not active, so there is not need to feel against it imo.

[gwgardner]

and +1 for a selectable Fog of War feature also. If I were playing a random map, I would definitely prefer Fog of War.

[biceps always together!!]

Originally posted by Elindos Phar:

Fog of war restores the concept of "exploration" instead of the one of "calculation".

There are people who are extremely good calculators so they need the unknown factor such as exploration to have game fun in a 4X game (4X does include exploration too), instead of just managing known elements.

I know people who ask this feature.
It will only affect the player, adding to the difficulty.

I know it does not fit entirely into Ozymandias but it does provide a very interesting thing in a game for replayability and mystery.

However, it will be an option anyway, one you can activate as well as random maps or not active, so there is not need to feel against it imo.

The game being fun is infinitely more important than abiding by some arbitrary genre title. A game with 4-10 enemies does not need fog of war to have unknown elements. The unknown element are the actions of your opponents.

Games with fog of war feature various unit types, diplomacy, technology, spies, recon units etc. to get rid of fog of war. Ozymandias by design does not have any of that. There would be no way to for the player to counteract fog of war without introducing major overhauls to the simple board game like formula this game is going for.

Not every game needs to be the same. There are a hundreds of strategy games that do exactly what you are asking for on Steam already.

[saberlost]

This is more a board game with a single player feature added. From playing the demo I cannot say adding things like fog or war or generated maps is needed.
It brings some of the charm to the game that it is a fixed board. Not too big and it goes fast playing one game. You can even play two in one evening.

[Red Dragon]

The issue with random maps is that it would probably be very hard to code to make them both balanced and sensible looking. I think I remember that during the early playtesting the maps were tweaked to place an island here and replace a grassland with a forest there just to better balance the player starts. Changing a handful of tiles around your starting location can have huge effects, either they enable you to snowball hard or they can totally cripple you.

Fog of war also seems extremely iffy, how would you even uncover it in a meaningful way - just for example three tiles outward of your borders? And then you can't even see what the other civs are doing and then suddenly boom game over? Sounds horrible, not every game needs to ape the standard 4x formula if it doesn't make any practical sense, 3x is good enough. The game design is tight, no need to bolt on random bits just coz you saw them in another game you liked.

[The Renderer]

As I said, map generation is difficult. But without it you'll play it only a couple of times and are done with it. Not worth getting it without. Fog of war... I don't care too much about, depends on the game mechanics.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

The game being fun is infinitely more important than abiding by some arbitrary genre title. A game with 4-10 enemies does not need fog of war to have unknown elements. The unknown element are the actions of your opponents.

Games with fog of war feature various unit types, diplomacy, technology, spies, recon units etc. to get rid of fog of war.

I think you go into too much detail here and by that I mean that mentioning diplomacy and spies does not make sense in this game.

You see around a number of tiles around your owned tiles, when you expand, you discover the other tiles further, this would be enough and it's quick to do. No need for more to do that. It's the basics of exploration and it has always worked. This concept of exploration worked since the very early days of 4X, which were fun without adding any more stuff. The only real decision to make is if we see 1 tile, or 2 tiles, or 3+ tiles further, and I think 2 is ok.

And I play the game too and I can tell you this is exactly one of the points the game could benefit from ; and looks especially interesting as an option for random maps.

I have a friend who won't play until "exploration" is put into the game to introduce more unknown factor. Otherwise, it's a 3X, but it's not about a title, it's about the fun we have in a game and the fact we notice it would be even better in random maps.

You may disagree that it's of interest to you because you appreciate the control you have on information without fog of war. But players have different strategic ways of using the nice Ozymandias content to extend its replayability. I can use the "information control" on normal maps and modes already, a lot. For some players, if everything is known, there is too much "control" too early.

As explained, there is no need to oppose some kind of "complexity" to making fog of war happen. It's also so wrong to oppose the principle of "fun", using that as opposing it to FoW is fallacious because fog of war can be fun in this game and can fit naturally into the game system without complications.

We insist for that to be put as an option, of course, this allows different tastes such as yours to be unaffected. Really, it's a win-win and I don't see any reason "to wage war" to this proposal with arguments such as "need diplomacy", "is opposed to the concept of fun", "some arbitrary genre", etc. It is fun and there are explainable reasons for it to be so. I mentioned it because it works really well with the concept of random maps, that's all.

[Oddible]

This isn't a 4x game, so no, this game doesn't need it.

Originally posted by The Renderer:

As I said, map generation is difficult. But without it you'll play it only a couple of times and are done with it.

Right, like chess, and go. /s

[Ginner]

Random maps a must have in the future for me.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Some games do not have random maps and are played continuously.
is different than
One game is mentioned as if it could benefit from random maps.

I don't really understand the logic in the assumption that chess could justify eliminating random maps from "some games" or even "the one we mention", because "chess works without". The games are not chess, chess is its own thing, and its success may actually not have been "the lack of random maps". It's nice to connect stuff with other stuff but I don't think it works really well here.

If I try to go there, it could be comparable if you say that in chess you can calculate all possible moves and counter that, but only as far as you can compare ozymandias (with multiple factions instead of 1 vs 1, opportunity cards, 4X factor - I could argue about its 4X elements - etc, and also, one random thing which is randomized crown objectives "by default") and chess.

I don't know the % of compatibility but I doubt it's very valid. Yes, there are a few things, but only so far as all deterministic systems in games could be compared to that.

Actually also, there are randomizers in chess (used for training, chess riddles etc) but of course that's not really valid either as it's marginal.


Also, again: options.

If you don't think it's needed, I don't really know why it's so important that it requires posting here about "oh I don't care but I don't think it's needed". It's like posting in all the threads where I would have no opinion about it or am not interested in the thread's topic, I don't do that and when I do, come to think about it I sometimes realize I would have made a mistake.

If you have a valid opinion about "why proposing random maps as an option would be bad for the game and destroy it" then sure, please share with us it can be interesting, otherwise, since it will be a game option, I really don't understand.