Questions/looking for a few tips on creating balanced sail plans

[Green Death]

So, having completed my first two deep sea voyages I've been playing with changing up my Sanbuq's sail plan. For my two runs (GRC >DC and back) the only modification I made was to extend the bowsprit and add a 17 yard jib up front. She sailed nicely and I've got the hang of adjusting the mizzen sail to maintain a neutral helm.

My main question is about how to create a properly balanced setup; most plans I've come up with seem to require letting out the mizzen sail (whatever I fit) quite a bit, sometimes almost fully let out to keep the helm neutral. I was a little surprised at this given I've been playing with keeping the big 12 yard Lateen and 17 yard jib up front. Was expecting it to be pushing away from the wind more than pulling up into it, I'm guessing it's because the gaff sails extend rearwards more so increase the pressure at the stern. Is this just 'normal' or should I be reducing the size of the mizzen sail so that she sails neutral with minimal adjustment? Are there any tricks or tips to achieving this if so?

Also, what difference does it make with where a jib is positioned on its stay? Again, ,I'm guessing it shifts the balance forward/aft, but does it affect power generation at all?

So far, this has been the rig I've liked best - intention is to run longer deep sea voyages, mainly on upwind routes. She runs a good 9-10 knots close hauled.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/WinTox110/screenshot/2345880842792648586/

[Odoty]

Generally the mizzen has to be quite loose, simply because it is a large area a long way from the pivot point of the boat. If you never use all the area of it, even on a run, I guess there's no need for it to be that big
Some person however (I think just one) has reported that their boat turns into the wind with just a jib, but I have yet to actually see it myself

[ling.speed]

Speaking of just ingame stuff not real sailing...
Instead of the more square gaff, i like the short ones on mizzen.
Also the strength of staysails drops with angle faster than it does for mizzen, so in practice getting the big bowsprit and biggest sail there has far smaller effect than size (or how loose) the mizen is.

Also >personally< im not a fan of the topsail square, it puts A LOT of weight up top, making running light a chore, not worth the extra 5-10% of speed downwind.
Similar thing with putting enormous staysail, it does help both up and down wind a little and looks cool (which is all we need tbh) but in case of "balanced" trade ships, functionality and safety comes before speed .

Originally posted by Odoty:

Some person however (I think just one) has reported that their boat turns into the wind with just a jib, but I have yet to actually see it myself

I've been running similar setup lately and can confirm a jib like in the picture here will pull a bit into wind. But in practice running with other sails its not noticable unless the sail balance is on the edge.

[Green Death]

Cheers chaps, appreciate the help.

Originally posted by ling.speed:

Instead of the more square gaff, i like the short ones on mizzen.

This seemed to do the trick, the short 8yd Gaff balances perfectly with the 12yd Lateen... and yes I'm a sucker for the big jib because it looks great. There was some thought, in that in heavy weather I can drop the lateen and run on staysails and gaff.

Also dropped the topmast, as you say, just after posting. Other than practical concerns, it just spoils her lines :)

Anyway, she is improved on the previous rig at all points of sail, so I'm happy enough for now. Feels like she turns a lot more easily as well without that big old mizzen lateen.

[NefariousFox]

The only way to be sure about performance, is to put her to wind, and use a chip log. If you're light on yardage light winds will be an obvious problem.

Real world we would have design specs on the boats, which would give us hull speed, ballast, displacement, and maximum yardage. These numbers would be considered required for operation of the boat. In fact all boats have many spec numbers associated that are necessary for operation.
Not having any specs on the boats means that all modifications are just shooting in the dark. And we have no clue what optimum loads would be.

I would prefer if we have
LOA
Beam
Draft
Displacement
Ballast

With a displacement disclosure alone we can calculate "sail are / displacement" (SA/D) ratio.
With designed ballast we know exactly how much cargo to load for optimum running, and have upper limits in the design known.

---

It should also be noted that height of the sails (aspect) is important for real world performance. I don't know if it effects sail plans in Sailwind however. Higher aspect sails will have higher performance per yard. But also be more difficult to keep control of. (real world)

[Green Death]

Indeed, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about sail plans and how people work out the ways to rig their boats. As somebody who has not sailed since childhood it's fascinating but probably not entirely relevant to how things work in game. 'Suck it and see' does seem to be situation, which is fine by me.

edit; came across some interesting 'rules of thumb', such as 'on a sloop the headsail yardage should be 50% of the mainsail, on a cutter the headsails should be 70% of the mainsail'. Again, I wonder how relevant they are to this game but fun to play around with.

I'd also much rather see the sailing model improved and expanded rather than things like multiplayer, sea monsters or 'player housing' (why would I want a house I'll never spend time in?). Guess it depends what the dev is willing and able to do with the foundation he has built.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Green Death:

I'd also much rather see the sailing model improved and expanded rather than things like multiplayer, sea monsters or 'player housing' (why would I want a house I'll never spend time in?). Guess it depends what the dev is willing and able to do with the foundation he has built.

i want housing, but not at the cost of improved sailing. once the sailing model is "tip-top," then we can start thinking about extras.

[jamespfp]

RE: Staysails and Gaff on the Sanbuq; She'll heave to like a boss as well, so you can pick your moment when a storm blows up; either start running close hauled on the course which takes you away from its track, or try running with it a while before turning into the wind and waves when it catches up. I can't think of a more seaworthy hull at present, especially in heavy wind though I have nearly heeled her over running close hauled with too much sail up.

A couple of tips for you on specific sails to try:

- Gold Rock City has Wide Squares (8 and 12 foot I think), and the Sanbuq can use 2 of those plus a jib and and up to 2 gaff sails.
- The Funky "8 foot Short gaff" from GRC with the longer boom isn't as good as a 8 foot Short Gaff from Fort Aestrin, in my experience. GRC's deploys from the top down, and takes longer to get back in; Fort Aestrin's is the reverse and a little more useful when docking because of how fast it drops.
- The best Jib I've tried on the Sanbuq was the largest Junk Jib I could purchase at Kicia Bay dockyard. I found it super easy to "read" for how well it was filled and the easiest to see past while steering.

My last sail setup was the most work, with 1 Junk Jib, 1 wide square and the 8 foot short gaff on the Mainmast, and 1 wide square plus 1 junk gaff on the Mizzenmast. That last Gaff is for helping with the wheel / autosteering primarily, and also would be the one I'd use when heaving to bad weather. As long as the winds aren't blowing at hurricane levels the staysail + both gaffs work excellently for all winds they can take advantage of. I sometimes use the gaffs as telltales for where the squares could be set. I don't miss the lateens at all. It can fly like the wind downwind on just the squares which have a very similar size of boom but more sail area.