Do you even use square sails?

[X-SR71]

90% of the time we're sailing close hauled. I'm about to remove them from my ship altogether.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Originally posted by FreeQuest:

Also the topmast squares are very handy for reversing

They can be, but with the recent changes to rudder drag you might find that they're not quite as handy as they once were unless the rudder is kept straight(er).

just so. with 3 junk squares and that square topsail, on my brig, facing directly into the teeth of the wind: i was moving forward.

when i noticed, for the first time in like a year and a half realtime, i dropped anchor.

i had just entered the fire islands, it was almost night, and there was a lot of fog. i had already seen the sandbanks. so i dropped anchor and slept. getting stuck in irons sucks (especially now my "quick reverse" isnt working,) but what sucks more is running aground while you're stuck in irons.

[Rittersporn]

I use one square sail on junks. It´s efficient for moving bachwards to come in the wind again
after laying before anchor.

[FreeQuest]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Originally posted by FreeQuest:

Also the topmast squares are very handy for reversing

They can be, but with the recent changes to rudder drag you might find that they're not quite as handy as they once were unless the rudder is kept straight(er).

Seams fine to me I genrally let the ship build up speed first and gently turn rudder I dont really go full on with the rudder anyway and Im not in a hurry still have no problem backing out of Albacore island like I normally do.

[jamespfp]

Originally posted by FreeQuest:

Seams fine to me I genrally let the ship build up speed first and gently turn rudder I dont really go full on with the rudder anyway and Im not in a hurry still have no problem backing out of Albacore island like I normally do.

Ah, but now you've let the cat out of your own bag. What's the tightest turning circle possible on any boat in the game as it now stands? A: Much much much wider than it ever was before, especially if the ship must be moving faster to initiate it.

Cutting the rudder hard over should not completely stop the ship, or if so, why would rudders ever turn that much? If the only useful angles for a rudder are 30% or less of what's possible, I mean?

Now, full disclosure -- The Brig is the ship I happened to be sailing when the 0.22 update dropped, so I noticed the difference in that particular case right away but it might not even be the best example of things which aren't working right.

So, last night I started a new game in Easy Mode using the Dhow, and guess what I discovered there? Yeah, the Dhow will literally start flying backwards off the dock with any and all of its sails furled up if the wind starts out blowing on its bow. That is to say, ships which were the most responsive to rudder and sail input are now almost uncontrollable, too, and it is completely possible for something like the dhow to be thrown 90 degrees or more off of course by bouncing over 1 wave, and to be thrown completely into reverse faster than you can roll the rudder back, or do anything about it with sail trim.

Fun fact: Reverse gear doesn't need a square sail. Jibs can do it, gaffs can do it, lateens can do it, completely furled sails can do it.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Ah, but now you've let the cat out of your own bag. What's the tightest turning circle possible on any boat in the game as it now stands? A: Much much much wider than it ever was before, especially if the ship must be moving faster to initiate it.

No it's not. 3MJ and all small ships still turn tighter than your dad's F-150.

and reversing with all closed sails is very difficult, especially when you try to get out of the iron, because doing so reaquires rudder input and that creates a lot of drag.
in fact after the recent rudder drag increase, the brig can NOT start moving backwards with a pushed sail (10yd fin, 217 area) unless the rudder input is half or below. (it's the main reason why I switched to Sanbuq. Brig is now the only ship that can't tack.).

[jamespfp]

Brig *CAN* tack, it won't tack well or properly is all. :D

[jamespfp]

And re: Turning circles -- if the ship stalls in the turn, pal, it's not tighter. I took the Junk for the exploration trip to Fire Fish Lagoon, and to be quite honest, I'm not exactly too impressed with its handling at the moment either, but I had the least amount of experience on the Junk prior to 0.21 and thus I won't give my own data too much weight.

Can the Junk stall in a tack or a turn? Yep.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

And re: Turning circles -- if the ship stalls in the turn, pal, it's not tighter. I took the Junk for the exploration trip to Fire Fish Lagoon, and to be quite honest, I'm not exactly too impressed with its handling at the moment either, but I had the least amount of experience on the Junk prior to 0.21 and thus I won't give my own data too much weight.

Can the Junk stall in a tack or a turn? Yep.

You need to F-up very hard to stall a junk when tacking, let alone turning... I have at least 5 playthroughs with the 3MJ including before and after the patch and it's the easiest one to tack, IDK HOW you could be "not impressed" with its turning capability when it's literally the most turnable large ship...

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Brig *CAN* tack, it won't tack well or properly is all. :D

It's still hard, if not impossible, to tack *without stoppage*.
And I am talking about brig remodelled into all-fore-and-aft.

[jamespfp]

Not Impressed <-- Easy to explain really. Take a good look at the hull form. If I had to describe it, I'd choose the word Canoe for it. It has decently high freeboard and a pretty good length and beam, and it isn't too V-shaped, so it ought to ride really well when heeled over.

I spent very little time in the Junk prior to 0.22, and the very first thing I noticed post update is the Rudder. Again, having experience with a Canoe and also with sailing, I can appreciate that very little can make a very big difference with something shaped like the Junk. And just to be sure about my opinions with respect to the game I spent a few hours with the Dhow again post update to compare it with the Junk. I think the Junk's rudder needs a higher range of angles, somewhat like the Brig, making it more precise rather than too responsive.

The Dhow did help me understand some of what's changed better though. I put some fore and aft rigging on it and ran it up to Aestrin to get better sails. The Brig is a littler easier to manage now that I have a definite relationship established between the sail settings and the various types of motion I can expect to see given the different hull forms.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Not Impressed <-- Easy to explain really. Take a good look at the hull form. If I had to describe it, I'd choose the word Canoe for it. It has decently high freeboard and a pretty good length and beam, and it isn't too V-shaped, so it ought to ride really well when heeled over.

originally you were saying not impressed WITH ITS HANDLING, not it's shape or design.
And handling is THE one thing 3MJ is best.

The closest description for 3MJ hull is Yagatabune, a Japanese river boat. I mentioned that at least 3 times in the past year.

[jamespfp]

The Handling is a consequence of its shape and the dynamics changed between 0.21 and 0.22, and as I have already stated, I only tried the Junk once or twice before that. So its handling has 2 radically different samples.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

The Handling is a consequence of its shape and the dynamics changed between 0.21 and 0.22, and as I have already stated, I only tried the Junk once or twice before that. So its handling has 2 radically different samples.

No it doesn't. I drove 3MJ in every version and I do not see radical differences. It's more likely that your lack of experience in the 3MJ caused you to think that it changed drastically.

In fact 3MJ is probably the large ship whose hull specifications changed the least between 0.21 and .22.
.22 introduced lowering of overall drag, which is limited because 3MJ has always been low drag (and its speed has always been limited by "how much sail you can put before it capsizes your ship")
.22 also introduced increase of rudder drag, whose effect on 3MJ is also limited because as what have always been the most agile and most quick reacting rudder, whatever drag caused by the rudder has been brief anyway.