Do you even use square sails?

[X-SR71]

90% of the time we're sailing close hauled. I'm about to remove them from my ship altogether.

[thekins]

square for the big voyages cuz you can travel the entire way under full sail in the trade winds
if your doing 1 group of islands yeah youll be into the wind 60%+ of the time
like you can go from fort to chronos island under full wind the entire trip but coming back you have to go to emerald isle to do that
basically big trip = square all other anything else

[boris.glevrk]

Personally I don't. I remodel them out.
There are two kinds of sails, square that works like ~50% of the time, and fore-and-aft that works 100% of the time. The choice seems obvious to me.

[Dynamiez]

Same for me. I use mainly (or only) fore and aft rigged sails because they are more versatile. And i like the look of ships with those sails more 😅
Yes, on long distances with prefered winds i would be faster with square sails, but i like sailing so i dont mind if the journey takes 10 instead of 8 days

[Thundercracker]

do junk squares count? i got a few of them. and one topsail square.

i get to use them about half the time, and that half is nice.

[Dmitry]

I think it's a question of personal choice and I agree with Boris: indeed, a fore-and-aft rigging always works.

But I like raising a square main to capitalise on trade winds, it works even in beam reach.

And gaff sails and jibs or lateen sails are perfect when are you maneuvering upwind in an archipelago.

[jamespfp]

Don't be too quick to dismiss square rigging. Squares and lateens are basically the same sail with the only difference being that the lateens have approximately half the sail area cut away. Otherwise, they both have the same large and very wide booms.

So, if you like the way a lateen works the moment the winds turn in favour of a downwind run, the squares are really where it is at simply because they almost certainly have twice the sail area to a similar sized lateen. I personally like the sanbuq much better with an 8 yard "wide square" on its mizzen mast, available at the Gold Rock City drydock. Fort Aestrin also has some dandy trapezoidal square forms which give a much better indication of wind conditions than the actually square sail, and gets another square yard of sail area. Be aware though that the sanbuq's default shrouds expect lateen rigging and will give some nasty angles for square rigging unless it is mounted quite high on the mast.

Squares can be used in any wind from directly on the beam (90 degrees to port or starboard) and all winds in between coming from behind you. They always sail best when they're kept at a 45 degree angle with respect to that wind, and will cause quite a bit of heeling when they get caught at 90 degrees to the wind. And, for the record, I much prefer any square rigging when it is "matched", which is to say I don't like ships with a single square sail but with 2 or more mounted on 2 or more masts. If I have a very large square mounted on the mizzen mast, I would expect to have to hoist 2 or more staysails on the fore and main mast to counterbalance it unless there was another square sail to help.

As regards to how much use they get, it depends on the ship I'd bet. I'm using square rigging on the Brig about as much as I did with a modified sanbuq which is a little more than half of the time. It's a sure bet that the weather modelling will throw opportunities at you to use them especially when the wind changes to come around to your beam while you're underway. At that time, depending on the course changes and any other factors (perhaps an approaching storm) you could reasonably expect to drop the squares and turn to take advantage of them by putting the wind onto one of the rear corners. Storms often offer some wildly fast sailing opportunities provided the courses are favourable.

[jamespfp]

A Word about the Cog -- in terms of the Default ships in the game, the Cog is the one which is clearly some form of intelligence test. Perhaps that's why its the boat for Hard Mode, because there is an implied hurdle with the rigging and the sailor should have enough good sense to recognise the trouble with having a single jib and a single square sail.

Fore and Aft rigging would make the Cog more like the NPC Cog that sails in the vicinity of Siren Song and Eastwind, the one that has a gaff rather than a square. The Cog can get a second mast and a second set of sails at the dockyard. It might also be advisable to get rid of the top deck while doing so.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

Don't be too quick to dismiss square rigging. Squares and lateens are basically the same sail with the only difference being that the lateens have approximately half the sail area cut away.

3MJ main mast largest square rig: 17yd junk square, 255 area, possible angle: +/- 40 degrees from running wind.
3MJ main mast largest lateen: 10yd fin, 217 area. possible angle: 75/89 from irons.
The choice is obvious.

The only masts I would ever use square sail would be the Sanbuq main mast extension and bowsprits, both because only square sails are available there.

[jamespfp]

^^ The Junk style of sails are exceptional in most cases, I won't deny that. The Al Ankh lateens versus the wide Al Ankh squares, that's what I take as average.

I often wonder about how much the mass of the rigging matters. I tried putting Brig squares on the Sanbuq once but quickly decided against it after putting it back in the water.

If the squares can get more than 45 degrees of sweep to either side, it is possible to use them to sail into the wind but only by reducing the sail to remove that part of the sail which is causing nothing but heeling and a reduction in forward speed. That's the genius of lateen rigging in a nutshell. The Junk rigging gets natural reef points.

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by jamespfp:

^^ The Junk style of sails are exceptional in most cases, I won't deny that. The Al Ankh lateens versus the wide Al Ankh squares, that's what I take as average.

Just to notify you I just sailed within 7.5 days (with two stoppages!) from GRC to FA in only topsail gaffs and jibs (most of the time jibs are ineffective).
I sincerely doubt how fast it could be if I try a square rig.
Yes I am going to put a square topsail after this, but only because there's a square sail-only top mast for my ship.

[FreeQuest]

Generally I use the Brig I use the 2 biggest Lateen's with 5' wide topmast Square's find that works best for me.

I don't mind squares but because I generally don't sail the trade winds I need more upwind performance. I just tend to do everything the reverse way.

Also the topmast squares are very handy for reversing

[boris.glevrk]

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

Originally posted by jamespfp:

^^ The Junk style of sails are exceptional in most cases, I won't deny that. The Al Ankh lateens versus the wide Al Ankh squares, that's what I take as average.

Just to notify you I just sailed within 7.5 days (with two stoppages!) from GRC to FA in only topsail gaffs and jibs (most of the time jibs are ineffective).
I sincerely doubt how fast it could be if I try a square rig.
Yes I am going to put a square topsail after this, but only because there's a square sail-only top mast for my ship.

And now, with also two stoppages, I reached Dragon Cliff in...
6 days and 19 hours.
And that's with generally bad wind and some sails almost always reefed.
Here's my config:
Sanbuq hull, default main/mizzen mast, topmast addition, large rudder, long bowsprit with both stays.
upper stay: 17yd (I think?) jib from Fort Aestrin (98 area)
lower stay: small genoa from Fort Aestrin (43 area)
Main mast: 12yd topsail gaff from Gold Rock City (137 area)
top mast: 9yd brig square (94 area) from Fort Aestrin
mizzen mast: 10yd gaff (95 area) from Fort Aestrin

Note that the 9yd brig square has 89/89 arc on the top sail, so it's square sail but it has same range of angling as a fore-and-aft. So this ship has 467 total area of effectively all fore-and-aft sails. Naturally, in practice, the top sail is almost always closed due to how easy it tilts the ship.

[jamespfp]

Originally posted by boris.glevrk:

Just to notify you I just sailed within 7.5 days (with two stoppages!) from GRC to FA in only topsail gaffs and jibs (most of the time jibs are ineffective).
I sincerely doubt how fast it could be if I try a square rig.
Yes I am going to put a square topsail after this, but only because there's a square sail-only top mast for my ship.

I've done the run between Oasis and Fort Aestrin in approximately the same time, 6-7 days running on squares the whole way.

[jamespfp]

Originally posted by FreeQuest:

Also the topmast squares are very handy for reversing

They can be, but with the recent changes to rudder drag you might find that they're not quite as handy as they once were unless the rudder is kept straight(er).

[jamespfp]

RE: Getting nearly 90 degrees of sweep on a square is very good, no argument. :D

The best thing about putting the sails higher up is improved angles. The worst part is that they get so much more leverage from higher up, so there's more heeling to manage. I find in practice it means taking in as much sail as is necessary to stop the heeling from sloshing water over the downwind side.