Played a bit more, don't think I like the game's balance/design now

[Rin D. Pryde]

So I've won two runs with Moonie and Cellarius so far, and not really a deckbuilder expert, but I feel now that Astrea's balance/design is too lopsided to really enjoy.

First of all, you're almost forced to base your deck on risky dice. What's worse, apart from some really powerful ones (like Perdition's Dive, Indigo's Heart, or that shark attack that grows in power during a fight), a lot of risky cards' benefits don't even overweight their risk, so I constantly find myself just skipping them altogether.

Further, safe cards are totally useless for the most part and not even worth looking at due to their laughable stats. Some balanced ones may be ok, but still largely meh. I know there are some super-specific builds you can make with them (like +X damage for every safe card, for example), but outside of that, I don't really feel that 90% of safe or balanced cards are worth it for non-meta players.

Then there's the same situation with artifacts. The vast majority of black hole ones give you penalties so serious that their benefits are simply not worth it most of the time. Like one time I accidentally took the one that limited your virtues use to once per turn (I simply forgot that your abilities are called virtues, lol, thought it's a type of cards). And I was, like, WHAT? Who in their right mind would take this artifact willingly when Virtues are one of your most powerful tools in this game? No benefit can be worth it 99% of the time. Other penalties are also too severe while benefits are *extremely* situational. Even star artifacts with ostensibly no downsides often work in such a way that can ruin many of your builds, so mostly skip as well.

In the end, I feel like this game exclusively promotes a "glass cannon" play style above all else. The only freedom a player has is in some ultra specific and *extremely* gimmicky builds, but most of the time, the vast majority of cards and artifacts are not even worth taking if you're playing "blind" since they most likely will handicap you more than help you.

Am I missing something?

[Bumc]

The "meta" seems to actually be balanced around risky cards, but not in the way you're thinking.

There are two types of cards that win you the game -- ultimate break-the-game-for-a-turn cards like Incorruptible, and things that scale damage.

Main difference between characters is the latter part, each one has 2 to 4 viable ways to break the game and do crazy damage provided you have enough draw and survivability.

The former though is pretty much the same -- you take some broken risky card and remove the risk part of it by spending 500-800 dust in the forge shop, then duplicate it as many times as you can.

Best decks are very small, sometimes down to 8 dice, with most of them being forged and with 1-2 finishers. More reasonable to get and not die in the process have ~16 cards, most of which have draw, copycat or some kind of defenses on them.

Not sure what's the "glass cannon" part comes from, you literally die turn 1-3 against many enemies if you build full glass and don't end turn either immune, light shielded or somehow nullifying their damage.

[Rin D. Pryde]

Originally posted by Bumc:

you take some broken risky card and remove the risk part of it by spending 500-800 dust in the forge shop, then duplicate it as many times as you can.

Ohhh, so when you duplicate a forged/modified dice — it also duplicates any changes you made to it? Interesting. I actually thought it will give a "default" version, so never actually tried this.

Originally posted by Bumc:

Not sure what's the "glass cannon" part comes from, you literally die turn 1-3 against many enemies if you build full glass and don't end turn either immune, light shielded or somehow nullifying their damage.

By "glass cannon" I mostly mean builds that always prioritize high risk, perhaps not the best choice of words =)

[AncientSpark]

It generally depends on your build with Risky dice. It is true that Risky dice tend to be stronger on average and have the highest scaling, but it can often be extremely painful with regards to how many rerolls they take to work. Sometimes Safe dice are required to accumulate enough self Purify to balance out properly, and some effects such as Reef Song on Cell don't really get enough scaling at higher rarities for you to care much about their higher rarity versions. It's more dice specific than anything. Some characters such as the last one also generally don't incentivize Risky heavy decks because they have enough scaling and are more concerned with upfront power or utility.

Also, this is not counting Safe die specific Blessings (the 8 safe dice = Virtue refresh is extremely powerful).

The anti-Virtue Black Hole blessing is, likewise, pretty character or build specific. Ironically, one of the biggest reasons TO run anti-Virtue is Safe die heavy decks, because you don't self-corrupt very often, so you aren't going to be Virtue looping a lot. Some characters also aren't very Virtue dependent (Sothis can get away with only one Virtue per turn, Hav can sometimes do so depending on the deck). You're underestimating just how powerful 2 draw is, by comparison; one of the best Virtues in the games is Draw 1 die, and this Relic gives you 2 of them immediately, with no setup. This is worth trading 2 Virtue uses upfront and is only an issue if you are going past 2 Virtue uses per turn without Refresh regularly (so, for example, Cell never takes it).

You're right in the sense that it's probably one of the worse Black Hole blessings, but it's not unplayable and there are reasons to consider it.

As for regular Star Blessings, I'm struggling to name any that actively ruin your builds, so could you provide some examples of what you're thinking of? The most I can think of is something that Light Shields at bad times for self-Corrupt, but most of them are strictly positive or rewards for doing something you'd otherwise not think of doing (so not build ruining, just optional).

Moonie and Cell tend to reward heavier Risk playstyles on low Anomalies in general, since they have ways to compensate for them and the game is not hard enough to punish them for them yet. While it's true that glass cannon playstyles is still sort of the meta in higher difficulties, it is by no means "free" as you go higher and often something you have to consider with other factors. Act 1 in particular gets difficult enough that if you take too much Risky dice early, you will just straight up explode due to not having sufficient self-Purify to balance out the consistent incoming 6 Corruption per turn plus various debuffs. (In fact, Cell is generally considered one of the worst high Anomoly characters specifically because you are playing the "Glass Cannon" playstyle way too early before you can even be prepared for it properly)

[ZirzoR]

I feel like this is more of a thing that you learn from playing the game more, or having some insight into how you're supposed to build decks in games like this.

You can win with safe die only, balanced only or risky die only, it all depends on how you approach the game, which character you're playing and what starting blessings you're going for, I've won games with 30+ safe dies in my deck and the helmet that boosts big decks + the photon gloves, some character have really powerful virtues and getting things that keep refreshing them or having a safe die based blessing combo makes wonders, especially if you have things that can boost your general dmg.

I ran the anti-virtue + safe die reset refresh + the shawl that refreshes virtues as the start of every battle. (refresh mechanic goes through the dark hole blessings and silence) It was one of the best runs I've had this far, literally just free extra dice.

I dont know who you've been watching playing this game, but I can say the the "meta" isn't set in stone, we all play the game vastly different, I'm a non-meta player and I've always been that way, I refuse to use the broken/op stuff and come up with builds that just work out of the gate and I do the same in this game.

Maybe its because I have 5000+ hours into games similar to this one, or maybe we just learn things differently, but I'm having a blast with this game trying out different builds almost every single run. (I also made a small guide here on steam for this game if you haven't seen it, it's not much, but it might help just a lil' bit)

[omgwtflolbbl]

I took the black hole blessing (+2 dice, limit 1 virtue) in a successful run through the heart (level 3 heart I think?) yesterday and it was quite powerful. It lets you disable corruption virtues by using any other virtue which can really help with simplifying what you need to juggle each turn. +2 dice is also no joke. It isn't good a lot of the time, but it still has a powerful time and place to shine.

[Rin D. Pryde]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

I've won games with 30+ safe dies in my deck and the helmet that boosts big decks + the photon gloves, some character have really powerful virtues and getting things that keep refreshing them or having a safe die based blessing combo makes wonders, especially if you have things that can boost your general dmg

Well, yeah, but I feel like this is exactly the issue of hyper-specific gimmick decks. I.e. yes, you can build a deck like this, but it's dependent on random drops. So on one hand, you can get lucky and obtain some of those items early and build around them, but otherwise you're easily screwed leaning on safe dice. On the other, you can simply go for high-risk dice to stand a chance, which is imho the one and only strategy you can confidently rely on if you want to win.

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

I dont know who you've been watching playing this game, but I can say the the "meta" isn't set in stone, we all play the game vastly different,

Nah, I don't watch anyone, just experimenting and reading these forums =)

Originally posted by omgwtflolbbl:

I took the black hole blessing (+2 dice, limit 1 virtue) in a successful run through the heart (level 3 heart I think?) yesterday and it was quite powerful. It lets you disable corruption virtues by using any other virtue which can really help with simplifying what you need to juggle each turn. +2 dice is also no joke. It isn't good a lot of the time, but it still has a powerful time and place to shine.

Yeah, won that one as well, but was actually surprised to find out that at least one of my dice was always instantly discarded on draw (also got another draw bonus prior to that). So there is a limit to your hand the game never told you about, that just added insult to injury

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Rin D. Pryde:

Well, yeah, but I feel like this is exactly the issue of hyper-specific gimmick decks. I.e. yes, you can build a deck like this, but it's dependent on random drops. So on one hand, you can get lucky and obtain some of those items early and build around them, but otherwise you're easily screwed leaning on safe dice. On the other, you can simply go for high-risk dice to stand a chance, which is imho the one and only strategy you can confidently rely on if you want to win.

The thing is, this is always going to be the case, ofcourse its a very specific build, if you get build enabling blessings in act 1, ofcourse you're going to build around them, its one of the core concepts of deckbuilding games. (Just like Grafts in Griftlands or Artifacts in StS/MT)

It's like playing an auto-chess game as a flex player. (Like teamfight tactics)

You're always supposed to be on the lookout for the "strongest board" and know where it is and how to do it, hence why playing flex is so strong in games like this, but if you hardforce risky die every single game, then sometimes you're simply going to lose because of it, because your other things dont support it, or that you missed something when you do this.

Now if you're a one-trick pony and you manage to beat all the difficulties like this then more power to you I guess, but in the long run its going to hinder your skill growth.

I think you need way more hours to talk about the balance of the game, you probably haven't even unlocked all the blessings and dice yet, nor played all the characters to have the full picture, I recommend for the future that you take your time learning the game before engaging in balance discussions.

(The game character tells you that the dice limit is 8, once you draw atleast 6 dice, atleast once per game) "My hand will be full soon, my limit is 8" so the game not telling you is false.

[Rin D. Pryde]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

I think you need way more hours to talk about the balance of the game, you probably haven't even unlocked all the blessings and dice yet, nor played all the characters to have the full picture, I recommend for the future that you take your time learning the game before engaging in balance discussions.

While I can definitely understand this notion, it still leads to yet another "Starfield debacle" a-la "the *real* game begins after 40+ hours in, you just have to grind a bit to get there and start having fun," lol.

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

(The game character tells you that the dice limit is 8, once you draw atleast 6 dice, atleast once per game) "My hand will be full soon, my limit is 8" so the game not telling you is false.

Fair point, but those dialogue bubbles are really easy to miss. Especially since the game had a bit of tutorial in the beginning, don't see why this couldn't be included.

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Rin D. Pryde:

While I can definitely understand this notion, it still leads to yet another "Starfield debacle" a-la "the *real* game begins after 40+ hours in, you just have to grind a bit to get there and start having fun," lol.

Almost all games similar to this one are like this:

1: Griftlands: levels unlock packs of more cards to use. (So the character gets more and more complicated the more you play them)

2: Monster train: each faction has 10 levels and you unlock faction specific artifacts and more cards as you level each factions. (Again, more complicated and more choices)

3: Slay the Spire: Each character here also has levels that unlock more and more cards as you play the game more. (Once again, making it more complicated and you having more choices)

and the list goes on and on.

The point is to learn each characters basic function, then as you level them up they get more and more cards and more "artifacts" that change your builds around, and thusly making the game more complicated as you get more and more hours into the game.

So honestly I have no idéa how you missed such a basic core concept in these games, even non-card games like Hades or Deadcells have the same function. (More weapons and items, etc, as you level.)

Now if you dont like it, that's a whole different discussion, if you dont like it from the start then i'm afraid playing the game more isn't going to improve your fun, because it just gets more complicated the more you play.

But ohh well.

[Cat-Gonk]

I've had the exact opposite experience.

- Risky dice are indeed what you build your pool around, but Safe dice are what support it. There are several Safe dice that I'm almost always happy to see, Reroll being the best example. Also, there's no reason why you have to focus on one particular class of die unless you're trying to max out a specific Blessing.

- The Black Hole Blessings are extremely strong. The one you specifically mention, the one-Virtue-per-turn blessing, is actually one I take almost every time I see it *especially* on Moonie. Note that it is explicitly stated in the text of this blessing that Refresh still works on it.

- The game is still more or less the same after unlocks. If you don't like the game now you probably won't like it after unlocking everything; if anything, unlocks dilute the pool of options.

[Adonan]

Really? I almost never use Risky dice. I did when I first started playing, but I've completely stopped at this point. So far, every game I've won involved Safe or Balanced dice, mostly safe. In fact, I haven't had too much trouble winning on the default difficulty until now (just started playing Orion).

I agree the Black Hole blessing don't feel worth it half the time, unless your character/build can ignore the downsides, or even work with them. I've never taken the one that applies Hidden after trying it the first time. I never even tried the one that limits you to one virtue per turn; from the very start I thought that sounded like a bad idea. In a game full of randomness, the virtues are the one tool that feel consistent most of the time. However, I will say this is probably down to the kind of player I am, as I don't like quite so much risk when it comes to the run-ending nature of roguelikes.

Overall, however, none of this has ruined my enjoyment of the game. So far, my favorite character is probably Austra. Despite her being the most random of all the characters, I actually had quite a lot of fun with her.

[Mani]

Originally posted by Adonan:

Really? I almost never use Risky dice. I did when I first started playing, but I've completely stopped at this point. So far, every game I've won involved Safe or Balanced dice, mostly safe. In fact, I haven't had too much trouble winning on the default difficulty until now (just started playing Orion).

I agree the Black Hole blessing don't feel worth it half the time, unless your character/build can ignore the downsides, or even work with them. I've never taken the one that applies Hidden after trying it the first time. I never even tried the one that limits you to one virtue per turn; from the very start I thought that sounded like a bad idea. In a game full of randomness, the virtues are the one tool that feel consistent most of the time. However, I will say this is probably down to the kind of player I am, as I don't like quite so much risk when it comes to the run-ending nature of roguelikes.

Overall, however, none of this has ruined my enjoyment of the game. So far, my favorite character is probably Austra. Despite her being the most random of all the characters, I actually had quite a lot of fun with her.

On higher difficulties it's a lot harder to win using mostly safe dice.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by Mani:

Originally posted by Adonan:

Really? I almost never use Risky dice. I did when I first started playing, but I've completely stopped at this point. So far, every game I've won involved Safe or Balanced dice, mostly safe. In fact, I haven't had too much trouble winning on the default difficulty until now (just started playing Orion).

I agree the Black Hole blessing don't feel worth it half the time, unless your character/build can ignore the downsides, or even work with them. I've never taken the one that applies Hidden after trying it the first time. I never even tried the one that limits you to one virtue per turn; from the very start I thought that sounded like a bad idea. In a game full of randomness, the virtues are the one tool that feel consistent most of the time. However, I will say this is probably down to the kind of player I am, as I don't like quite so much risk when it comes to the run-ending nature of roguelikes.

Overall, however, none of this has ruined my enjoyment of the game. So far, my favorite character is probably Austra. Despite her being the most random of all the characters, I actually had quite a lot of fun with her.

On higher difficulties it's a lot harder to win using mostly safe dice.

Yeah, barring Havelius with the blessing that gives him charged shield for every few safe dice. Then just turtle up and watch everything explode. I suspect that's going to be how I eventually get the achievement for FTKing a boss.

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Mani:

Originally posted by Adonan:

Really? I Snip...

On higher difficulties it's a lot harder to win using mostly safe dice.

Safe die usage is mostly for specific builds with key build enabling blessings or characters that can utilize them properly.

Otherwise balance/risk is the way to go, safe die as a neutral choice is always going to be worse.