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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
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I think our time is better spent trying to take the worst parts of the current cabin maps and servers and improving them. The larger problem here would be people are typically resistant to change and it would take a large movement and leadership of server owners and community members to make it happen.
P.s. Cabin should be played in survival mode…not objective. This one change, along with the indirect changes it brings solves at least 25% of issues alone.
I agree, and I know that it is in fact possible. I worked with Silence and SoD to improve their version cabin_dac. It never got very far since I got occupied with other things but also because it was more so an effort to show people that you can actually make the change you want to see.
As far as I know, nobody in this community actually have the right mixture of charisma, game knowledge and social skills to continue this change - or at least most of the people that I know would be capable feel the same way I do - tired of being in the spotlight. Another one who could do it got banned for attacking other servers :P
Big change in the community has always required unique people and I think we've run dry on most, if not all of them!
The "objective mode" is part of its success.
No idle times because zombies have infinite lifes, big hordes... fun §§§
Objective mode means that zombies are less inclinded to use teamwork. Instead they run at humans in single file, one by one. The game turns into running up to a cabin, hitting a board once or twice, getting killed, repeat. In survival mode where lives are limited, players learn that they need to work together and use rushing/hoarding tactics.
This also has down stream level design effects such as spawning less ammo. That is, sloppy gameplay no longer works, you are forced to refine it untill there is a good balance and spawn camping issues etc are fixed.
It is also much more satisfying to 'kill all the zombies' rather than just wait for a timer. Additonally, from the perspective of playing as a zombie, the teamwork makes it more enjoyable, especially now that your chances of getting spawn camped are less, you can run surviovors out of ammo and a host of other improvements.
Having extensivly played both zps and zpo versions of cabin, and being an active member of communities which played both these maps, my consensus is that zps is the more enjoyable way to play cabin.
There is better options(Infact, church_siege_final wasn't even the final version from the original author), yet they don't use them.
The fact is the majority dont want a good experience they want to kill zombies easily.
Yes, I don't think anyone's really arguing against that. However, a couple of us believe it is possible to shape the desire of what the community wants, if the right outlets and individuals are willing to take charge.
I personally believe so because I've done so before with Davidian and Just Panic!. I also believe outlets, like mappers and server owners, are willing to listen to someone stubborn and reasonable enough when it comes to balancing these maps, because of my brief experience with SoD.
But the problem is that;
Most of the people that want these maps to change don't have the skills to approach and form relationships with the outlets in question. They can't compromise their ideas and contemplate other view points, either. The rest are either tired of being the ones steering the boat or have no interest in being in the middle of things.
Most of the outlets have little interest in changing anything because people play them regardless. There's simply too much traffic for them to really be hurt by all the zombie skipping that takes place on these maps. It would take someone to be the voice of critique for server owners and mappers to listen up.
The players keep playing the maps because they're simple, but also because they're never exposed to any ideas of change or the game's full range of mechanics and features. Perception and preference is heavily shaped by the environment, in my opinion.
Well, this is like the longest and most profound discussion this forum has seen of cabin without people going awol - So, yeah, you definitely did something!
All of my earlier joking aside, I actually agree with a number of things in this post. However, I have a different take on some of it as someone who has worked on this maps extensively. I feel that the concepts of these maps should be taken and formulated into new designs for an entirely different map. I don't believe that the current existing maps should change (or could be changed significantly) as they would no longer be the same map.
The reason I believe this is because the maps the currently exist are not designed for anything more than for what they are. Even with making adjustments, there are limits to what can be done based on their design. Redesigning them would be highly undesireable as they wouldn't exist as the same map anymore. I think some people want to change the maps, due to their name recognition, into maps that are suitable for everyone, but I think that line of thinking is flawed in that the outcome would be less desirable than what was originally intended. Its not a resistance to change, its a resistance to the idea that these maps as they are need to change to fit everyone's needs. Because, ultimately, it would alienate its supporters and probably still upset the people who didn't like these maps in the first place, leaving the servers running them to remain empty. In a game that needs people to start up servers, you need reasons to retain them, you need to keep them entertained/motivated to play. Points/stats were one thing, but fun gameplay was another.
Here is my take on this: I don't think we should remake these maps as something else. I don't believe redesigning the maps would fix anything other than confusing/frustating the people that do like them for how they play as the people who don't like these maps will most likely see them and avoid them. Using their names and essentially redesigning/"rebranding" them into being something completely different wouldn't be a good idea. However, I do think that the concepts from these maps should be taken and turned into new, entirely different maps. There are a lot of people on both sides of the argument that can agree that we need new maps in general and I believe that is where the focus should be in terms of introducing maps that would take the concepts from things like Lake/Church/Cabin and make them into something more well polished and fresh rather than remaking the same old maps again.
That said, I realize that is easier said than done. Going a bit off topic (sorry OP) and to your point Kaempe, a lot of these changes do rely on having good, reliable, and available mappers as well as well established and growing communities that would push for such things. However, the only way those communities are built is by having things that they commonly like and will play. The also need aspirations of growth and building as well, even if its something small at first. The communities that could have made this difference all left since some of them kept getting messed with even after 3.0 dropped, which made it pretty much impossible for them to build/rebuild from SL/Fred debbacle. At present, it seems that most of the servers currently in play are basically subsisting rather than competing, which kind of makes things less interesting and doesn't leave room for innovations or the motivation for innovations. In other words, it makes people too comfortable and complacent. While chaos does sometimes ensue, there is something to be said for a healthy competition breeding a healthy community, its only when things get out of hand or take a very frightening turn, like it did with SL and Fred, that it becomes a terrible and tiring experience. I still feel like the game is in the shadow of those times, despite it being over, as I don't see anyone willingly investing time into the game out of fear and/or frustration with some of the changes. But that is a topic for an entirely different thread.
Anyway, TL;DR: I think the best thing that can be done is to start building new maps with a lot of the proposed concepts that these maps convey while designing it more towards the core of the game rather than changing/upgrading the current set of Lake/Church/Cabin. I think that would be better overall and would bring something fresh to the table that many might enjoy.
Now i have something for daily reading
That was a lot, and I only skimmed it. But don't forget that the current maps which are played on so frequently are themselves modifications, of modifications of maps. The first versions of cabin actually originated with some of the cabins ripped straight out of Half Life 2. If any map can be changed up, modded and still enjoyed, time has proven that cabin is that map. I have myself, nearing a decade ago, made what I, and my communities think were solid improvements which lead to about 60-65% win rate by zombies (a good balance in my opinion).
However, yes, this map still had problems with the main one being the vertical element of shooting off of roofs rendered zombies mostly defenceless. This was hard to work around whilst not ruining what made the map fun. This was the main compromise I made, to leave that aspect alone.
However, ultimately, I think you make a valid point, that we need to create new maps which can fix these issues, whilst providing a similar experience. I tried to do this, and from the minimal testing I have done, I think I was at least partially successful. I made a map with similar elements but made sure roof camping was less fruitful for kills and more tedious. Zombies spawn in hidden areas or high points, there are less weapons and camp spots have at least two entrances to reduce choke points. I never finished the map as the small Australian/NZ communities died long ago, but here is the latest version if anyone wants to continue on with my work. I think it will just need a few small physics bugs to do with doors, cubemap issues, and balance fixes if I recall. I have linked the bsp file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VVVFAVp_KJ5ard92arGqLRnSSIcPPqF2/view?usp=sharing
P.s. Credit to the long-ago author of cabin for the basement section which is near a direct copy.