Do we need ingame maps? Hell yes, of course we do

[Hermes Trismegistus]

Anticipating numerous objections: yes, I know that there were no maps in the original King's Field and Shadowtower series. They were not in the Souls series either. However, this does not necessarily mean that one must follow the canon.

Lunacid is a game that, due to its minimalism, uses a very limited set of assets, which often make up real labyrinths. It is incredibly difficult to navigate them, it does not add a game challenge - rather, it disorientates, frustrates and discourages the player from playing.

All that (in my opinion) the game needs is a simple and minimalistic map that auto-fills as the player explores new zones, with a set of primitive labels: a crystal, an NPC, a transition to new locations. And the ability to put custom labels.

I think that this will only increase the interest in exploring the game world and just make it a little easier to navigate without breaking the challenge of exploration.

[.kkartman]

Nah, just open all the maps on your second screen and enjoy, you will start to study luna-wiki sooner or later anyway.

[Hermes Trismegistus]

Originally posted by .kkartman:

Nah, just open all the maps on your second screen and enjoy, you will start to study luna-wiki sooner or later anyway.

This is one of the strategies. But if for a comfortable passage of the game I need to use third-party resources (which, moreover, contain spoilers that cannot be avoided) - this is a fact that clearly highlights the obviously weak point of game design. Instead of ruining the game experience with completely open maps, I'd rather explore them on my own, as in any good metroidvania or dungeon crawler

[Birmancat]

If we are going for immersion then... A balanced solution to this problem would be having an area map as a shop item. It shows up in the shop when you visit a new location and warp out of it to the Wing's Rest. Then you can decide if you need a map for this level or not. And make it a basic outline of the area without specific details with ability to write your own notes.

[Renka]

Maps are amazing, would love for it to be a feature ingame. King's field games also has them. They don't really list anything aside of the layout, but maybe something like how hollow knight don't show "fake walls" until you've been in the other side as in "Hey, there's some more layout here behind a wall"
Idk I genuinely feel like it would be cool

I love creating maps, but they're all made in paint and like OP said, you can't really avoid spoilers with those.

[Renka]

I don't believe maps discard the exploration element but the entire opposite, they enhance it. You know the layout, you know where you want to go rather than get stuck in the same room because your sense of direction sucks

the reason why I did maps in the first place is because I suck at knowing where I am in 3d spaces. It is a me problem, but doing a map definitely helped me cover the catacombs and feel like "ok, I did visit every room"

[Renka]

Game's like dark souls have rainbow stones which I love using and therefore don't really require a map because I do mark my path. Lunacid has none of that, sadly

[Renka]

Originally posted by TurtleBox:

Originally posted by Reniachii:

Game's like dark souls have rainbow stones which I love using and therefore don't really require a map because I do mark my path. Lunacid has none of that, sadly

It has rally flags./

..that were just introduced in last major update lol
I don't remember if you can craft them

[.kkartman]

Every level layout needs its map. Two map examples for you: Thief 1 Lost City and Resident Evil 4 (2005). Niether of it never harmed anyone's eager of "exploration". Sanguine Sea feels huge and strange and will suffer in immerce if appears on map as it is, so it needs an approximation. On the other hand, we have complicated cave systems in Castle and Archives or Tomb, which obviously require exact directions for player not to exhaust of running around in circles of identic corridor loops.

People always talk about how bad idea is to implement some new stuff that was lacking in previous products that worked succesfully, and can't imagine something non-existent before it actually start working, but shuts themselves up very quickly when they see FromSoftware's interactive map with icons and POIs on it, which is absolute heresy for a DS1-3 fans. For a sake of a pure and clean "exploration" you always ignored this map pieces in Elden Ring, did you?

Well... quest log and enemy list for a next time, maybe?

[Chewy102]

Originally posted by TurtleBox:

Seriously, if the selling point of a game is mystery and exploration one of it's features shouldn't be maps that remove exploration elements.

Legend of Grimrock is proof that a game built around mystery, exploring, and puzzles isn't held back by having a map. A map is freaking VITAL in games like that for most people!

It just needs to be done right. And I say Legend of Grimrock is a perfect example of a map done right. It builds up as you explore and allows you to write notes on it as needed.

And if not a map. Then giving the player access to bread crumbs is the next best thing. Those banners are nice, they are too rare though. I only got 10 of them and have no idea where the hell I found the things. Didn't even notice I had any to start with till I seen them in my inventory. If I only got 10 and have no idea where to get more, there's no point using the things.

[Beldarak]

A basic map feature would help tremendously. We don't need a complete map showing all the levels like some people seems to think here.

I'm an old gamer and I've seen my share of different map types in games, there are tons of possibilities that wouldn't hinder exploration (but rather improve it imho).

A basic Metroidvania map would be the best implementation for minimum dev time I think. Just draw a rectangle for each room showing the connexions between them. No need for further details.

But I think the dev could also improve situational awareness without a map. Just add a little something to each room to make it unique and "voilà": a distinctive statue, a curtain, a crumbled wall, a dead tree, a weirdly shaped rock... Basically, just add some unique/rare models here and there.

[Wife Pillow Fusion]

Originally posted by Birm:

If we are going for immersion then... A balanced solution to this problem would be having an area map as a shop item. It shows up in the shop when you visit a new location and warp out of it to the Wing's Rest. Then you can decide if you need a map for this level or not. And make it a basic outline of the area without specific details with ability to write your own notes.

I stand by this. Or use an Etrian Odyssey-like system letting players just draw their own maps, with optional icons to place.

Options are -always- good.

[Sindex]

I vote for having a map as well.
Can't explore places I don't know about and I am not the type to replay games.

[zenstrata]

Perhaps make it like old Zelda games, have the player find maps for each dungeon by exploring. Then allow them to see the map once they have found it through exploration.

[BIӨMΣCHΛПӨID69]

Originally posted by TurtleBox:

We really really don't. Games with a major focus on exploration / dungeon crawling don't need maps. Especially since most of the maps here are just sort of designed by lanes and not so much open with sub sections or what not.

Kind of a bad suggestion to imply the game with exploration as it's focus needs to remove the need to explore.

Tell that to 95% of the developers for metroidvania games. Kind of a bad take to imply that games that focus on exploration are made worse by having a map. If you don't want to use a map, then don't look at it.

[Maho]

I would like a map but one that takes some effort to use; no "you are here" icon, just a general outline of the main paths, no details and with the option of make notes into the map if you want to add the details yourself.