WARNING HEAVY SPOILERS - good guy/pacifist route

[DuskW4lker]

SPOILERS AHEAD,

PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS if you are giving .. well spoilers or instructions on how to do X Y Z or have questions on how to do X Y Z

Notice: this thread is moving towards morality, dilemmas and logic of the possible/expected/available actions for the player, share your opinions, what you thought could have done in a situation instead, what you expected, what did make sense, what didn't make much sense, how made you feel taking this decision or that one, etc. :D

Also please remember that this is a game, sometimes a parody, sometimes a reflection of real life, but still,real life politics should be out of the topic to prevent derailment of the thread.



Before you read: this is post is by no means a complaint, I've been having a blast with this game as a point and click player dating back to LucasArts games (Day of the tentacle, Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis, etc), and loving the incredible amount of attention to details, the pixel art is just beautiful, a pleasant sound design, in short I fell in love with this game.

But:

I tried my damnest to reach the barrier without being an evil captain with the objective to save the 5 outposts and earth, and only engaged in combat at the upper red sector of the first area just to get some funds and bought every dromium & star fragment available at the shops.

but when I thought that the only task left was to go to the barrier I managed to accumulate:

5 dromium
6 star fragments

so that yields 5 disruptor thingies (meaning saving the outposts) and 1 star fragment (meaning NO passage from the smugglers unless surrendering all of your cargo, even your hard earned disruptors). And the only other apparent option was to go head on fighting at the gate with 3 ships that will surely blast my ass into oblivion, because as I said my Thomas was a "Paragon" or pacifist and my ship was not prepared for this (only had starting equipment). Also, the disruptor thingies cannot be salvaged for their components, once crafted the process is irreversible afaik.

I thought that it was possible to fulfill your goals by wits and good deeds, but it seems not.

Granted I've not unlocked every ending card, but it seems to me that the only ones left are "bad endings" or scummy/morally questionable captain choices.

I mean I get it, sometimes a sacrifice is to be made for the greater good, but come on, I ended being TWO star fragments short for the safe passage.

I felt that there were more rewards for a "good outcome or good actions" that favored a combat route, for example the planet with the genetic lab, where if you get the 'exposed' ending you get nukes and the blueprint, or the epsilon station, with the 'call for help' you get stun rockets and the launcher, BUT, but what if I don't want to fight at all? It would have been great to pick a reward of a different nature in some endings when a character offers you combat equipment, considering that the Copernicus as I understood is a science/transport ship.

also through my choices - the good actions and longer quests resolution - I ended up recruiting people that in the end I never used or had a benefit at all, and again focusing on combat:

- umix - gives you a side quest that helps with time, space, or combat
- the white robot - combat cards
- jeff - combat card
- glacies - combat cards
- Kim - recruited her but then rolled back to an earlier save
- merv - the only good one for me at least, lets you enter the junkyard and salvage excellent loot
- the pilot - combat card

tldr: I was desperate for 2 star fragments and ended being locked into a not so good ending in the form of passing through the smugglers while surrendering every hard earned equipment, including the disruptors for saving the outposts, meaning that the same outcome could happen if the Captain chooses to go straight to the smugglers as the game begins, then ¿why even bother doing all those deeds in every planet?

an idea: allow the captain to store the disruptors into the quarantine module along with the fuel cell for saving earth. unless the smugglers are capable of stealing from there too and I didn't notice (that would suck even more) or I don't know ask shuttle to take them away for a ride, while the smugglers pick clean my ship

[Malkav0]

Hmm technically you would be making a point if the goal was to save these 5 outposts, but they can manage for some time without you, your goal is to reach Earth. The only exception is Outpost Ortis that will fall if you're too slow and that you can consider imperative to rescue, for Sarah to begin with. What I mean is, not fighting for the other 4 does not prevent you from reaching the end and they're not dying offscreen.

More often than not, in this game, several objectives are mutually exclusive, and making most of them coincide is a headache - I'm currently trying. On the bright side it gives weight to decisions, on the annoying side, it seems that some medals are incompatible with each others (I mean in addition of the Good vs Evil), due to mechanics. Like, "All fuel cells" and "Good Guy" are apparently incompatible. Good Guy seems to be glitched actually...

[DuskW4lker]

Originally posted by Malkav0:

Hmm technically you would be making a point if the goal was to save these 5 outposts, but they can manage for some time without you, your goal is to reach Earth. The only exception is Outpost Ortis that will fall if you're too slow and that you can consider imperative to rescue, for Sarah to begin with. What I mean is, not fighting for the other 4 does not prevent you from reaching the end and they're not dying offscreen.

More often than not, in this game, several objectives are mutually exclusive, and making most of them coincide is a headache - I'm currently trying. On the bright side it gives weight to decisions, on the annoying side, it seems that some medals are incompatible with each others (I mean in addition of the Good vs Evil), due to mechanics. Like, "All fuel cells" and "Good Guy" are apparently incompatible. Good Guy seems to be glitched actually...

First, thank you for reading and giving your input.

Second, yes, you are right, the main goal is to reach earth and the outposts are literally labeled as optional, but, in all honesty I love and prefer the kind of games that reward equally (gives you the resources/tools/etc for) any kind of gameplay, like being a good guy or being a bad guy, being a fighter or pacifist, that way - again in my opinion - there's no right or wrong way, to complete all of your objectives, including optional ones, with your wits and moral compass as your only limitations. The outcomes are there for you to ponder, if you felt in that moment that it was the "right" choice, maybe in a few years you would look back and think, 'well, my character (myself if role playing) acted like an ass in this situation, let's give it another go with a different perspective'.

And yes, there are some hiccups with the good guy and bad guy medals, also I didn't get why sabotaging the spacegate for the wellbeing of .. a frikin planet and its people, gives you the bad guy medal, I get it, it was a terrorist attack - without casualties as the cutscene implied - , but still, a planet or sector was literally dying - or so I was told by the afflicted people.

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by DuskW4lker:

First, thank you for reading and giving your input.

Second, yes, you are right, the main goal is to reach earth and the outposts are literally labeled as optional, but, in all honesty I love and prefer the kind of games that reward equally (gives you the resources/tools/etc for) any kind of gameplay, like being a good guy or being a bad guy, being a fighter or pacifist, that way - again in my opinion - there's no right or wrong way, to complete all of your objectives, including optional ones, with your wits and moral compass as your only limitations. The outcomes are there for you to ponder, if you felt in that moment that it was the "right" choice, maybe in a few years you would look back and think, 'well, my character (myself if role playing) acted like an ass in this situation, let's give it another go with a different perspective'.

And yes, there are some hiccups with the good guy and bad guy medals, also I didn't get why sabotaging the spacegate for the wellbeing of .. a frikin planet and its people, gives you the bad guy medal, I get it, it was a terrorist attack - without casualties as the cutscene implied - , but still, a planet or sector was literally dying - or so I was told by the afflicted people.

You're welcome ^^ yeah what I mean is Good or Evil don't seem to trigger when you'd expect... I found only 2 instances of Good for now and not yet searched for Evil.
For original topic, I guess it's fine for the devs to have decided a route with a different challenge, beyond roleplay. It participates in adding replayability beyond just "moral" choices, gameplay choices make it a quite complicated routing challenge. I'm currently toying with that ^^

[Rosenkrantzer]

First of all, amazing topic, DuskW4alker! I love it! This is the basis of the game. Morality, good, evil... hard topics, subjective topics. I am sorry to hear that the good guy / bad guy mechanic might be broke but other than that, wonderful! This has truly been a great read.

I am straight up going to be honest with you. This started as a much smaller game but it grew. We have been working on it for a long, long time. What it became is not what we set out to create. =) The original idea was to set the player in front of moral dilemmas where they would have a hard time to say what was the right and wrong way to go. In real life, doing the right thing, might very well be reward enough. We were afraid that people wouldn't satisfy with that in a game environment. To give these choices any meaning within the frameworks of the game mechanics we had the option of giving the player shortcuts home or advantages in the battle system.

If I understand you right, you want to reach the end of the game with the following criteria met.

- GOOD GUY
- NO BATTLE
- ALL 5 OUTPOSTS SAVED [Wife included]
- WIN THE WAR

Now this is something to aim for. I hope it is possible, but I honestly don't know.

After reading your very interesting post I think I have some new information for you. It might be a bit morally dubious but hey, how am I to say. There is another way to get through the smuggler route. No star fragments and no giving up gear. I don't know if you want me to tell you, so I leave it at that for now. Besides this option being a bit dark I think it would satisfy all other requirements you have.

Hope to keep this discussion alive.

[MIK0]

On the subject of the good guy route I don't understand the criteria on Celtic.
You can get an Evil Guy route if you give the suicide pill to the green guy pointing the gun at you. I could understand that, even if he kind of asked for it, you have options to keep him alive. Fine. But then why is that taking the artifact and endangering the planet is considered neutral? Am I missing something?

[DuskW4lker]

Originally posted by Rosenkrantzer:

happy snip

First of all, thank you very much for reading my post, and of course for making this beautifully crafted game, the passion poured into is palpable, it's been years you know? without seeing this standard of dedication into a game.

second, yes, those were my directives for completion, maybe a little bit of combat just to test the waters (and in the long run no combat at all), and the rest of my journey I committed to outwit any difficult situation without leaving a trail of corpses.

I know, my route might seem weird maybe? because I'm skipping a core feature of the game, combat, and also voluntarily choosing some outcomes that in terms of resources not help me in my approach to complete all of the objectives, but it felt the right thing to do.

The fact that there's a way through the smuggler route with a dark twist, is in itself great news, because my reaction was 'what, they didn't plan for the player to reach this point with these conditions met/playstyle?' and it seems that I was absolutely wrong. best let's leave it there for everyone to discover and get a surprise!!

But, it would be really great (wishful thinking) to have an alternative to that darker option, but it has to be damn difficult to accomplish, like brain melting puzzle or sequence of conditions to be met, something that makes the ever so sarcastic and of little hope in the Captain, Shuttle, to acknowledge his feat of intelligence (like a really unexpected solution)

Hopefully this thread will flourish with more dilemmas and opinions, because you created something special that puts the Captain/player in a really tough position.

Going into the meat freezer doesn't look so bad when everything is stacked against you eh? :D

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by Rosenkrantzer:

First of all, amazing topic, DuskW4alker! I love it! This is the basis of the game. Morality, good, evil... hard topics, subjective topics. I am sorry to hear that the good guy / bad guy mechanic might be broke but other than that, wonderful! This has truly been a great read.

I am straight up going to be honest with you. This started as a much smaller game but it grew. We have been working on it for a long, long time. What it became is not what we set out to create. =) The original idea was to set the player in front of moral dilemmas where they would have a hard time to say what was the right and wrong way to go. In real life, doing the right thing, might very well be reward enough. We were afraid that people wouldn't satisfy with that in a game environment. To give these choices any meaning within the frameworks of the game mechanics we had the option of giving the player shortcuts home or advantages in the battle system.

If I understand you right, you want to reach the end of the game with the following criteria met.

- GOOD GUY
- NO BATTLE
- ALL 5 OUTPOSTS SAVED [Wife included]
- WIN THE WAR

Now this is something to aim for. I hope it is possible, but I honestly don't know.

After reading your very interesting post I think I have some new information for you. It might be a bit morally dubious but hey, how am I to say. There is another way to get through the smuggler route. No star fragments and no giving up gear. I don't know if you want me to tell you, so I leave it at that for now. Besides this option being a bit dark I think it would satisfy all other requirements you have.

Hope to keep this discussion alive.

I can confidently say it is not possible.
I have listed the following Star Fragments:
1 200$ Merchant Mic
2 Stone Cube
3 Real Artifact
4 Picafetto Head
5 Fuel Cell
6 Fuel Cell
7 Fuel Cell
Needing 3 to go through the smugglers, it is one Star Fragment short for a pacifist route, that should definitely be possible. I'll put that in my next thread about feedback and bug reports, but possible fixes here iare lowering the cost for smugglers to 2 Star Fragments or changing the Device to be dismantled to a Star Fragment instead of Dromium (would make sense). Choosing a Star Fragment road is already heavy on choices for the player, as it requires to destroy the temple and not recruit Kim, so it'd add the necessity to rob a scientist, it's not exactly ideal. But other than that, I don't see easily fitting places to get Star Fragments, in a rewarding way - a dull possibility is also using merchants, as they already sell Dromium, I must say I didn't understand why Dromium was common and not Star Fragments, when Dromium is sold for more credits than Star Fragment.

Regarding smugglers, I wasn't offered passage, I was offered a nuke or nuke launcher... If you're refering to "that"

@OP I retract my previous statement about the non necessity of saving outposts, I hadn't seen an ending when skipping them, now I did and I definitely think you're right

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by DuskW4lker:

Originally posted by Rosenkrantzer:

SNIP

First of all, thank you very much for reading my post, and of course for making this beautifully crafted game, the passion poured into is palpable, it's been years you know? without seeing this standard of dedication into a game.

second, yes, those were my directives for completion, maybe a little bit of combat just to test the waters (and in the long run no combat at all), and the rest of my journey I committed to outwit any difficult situation without leaving a trail of corpses.

I know, my route might seem weird maybe? because I'm skipping a core feature of the game, combat, and also voluntarily choosing some outcomes that in terms of resources not help me in my approach to complete all of the objectives, but it felt the right thing to do.

The fact that there's a way through the smuggler route with a dark twist, is in itself great news, because my reaction was 'what, they didn't plan for the player to reach this point with these conditions met/playstyle?' and it seems that I was absolutely wrong. best let's leave it there for everyone to discover and get a surprise!!

But, it would be really great (wishful thinking) to have an alternative to that darker option, but it has to be damn difficult to accomplish, like brain melting puzzle or sequence of conditions to be met, something that makes the ever so sarcastic and of little hope in the Captain, Shuttle, to acknowledge his feat of intelligence (like a really unexpected solution)

Hopefully this thread will flourish with more dilemmas and opinions, because you created something special that puts the Captain/player in a really tough position.

Going into the meat freezer doesn't look so bad when everything is stacked against you eh? :D

After checking I remembered I had forgotten about an 8th Star Fragment, in Grand Junkyard. So, you can actually pass through the smugglers and save all 5 outposts. It requires one space battle but it's against a Capture Pod and it is destroyed instantly with the EMP Blaster you get from Maval.

@Dev I was wrong, this can be done without adding a Star Fragment to a dismantle or a shop, the count is right, very tight, with no room left for choice, but that route is possible. We can discuss the fact that it doesn't leave room for choice though. Having options could help the player regain agency.

[DuskW4lker]

Originally posted by Malkav0:

Originally posted by DuskW4lker:

snip

snip

Hi!

I have a question, previously you listed the following items:

1 200$ Merchant Mic
2 Stone Cube - got star fragment by disassembly
3 Real Artifact - I'm missing this one, will go back to Celic for some Piña Colada.
4 Picafetto Head - I got a Dromium container for this
5 Fuel Cell - got star fragment by disassembly
6 Fuel Cell - got star fragment by disassembly
7 Fuel Cell - a third usable fuel cell?, missing this one

Are you really really sure about your 8th and final star fragment recount? because I only found inside the junkyard a Dromium container, an engine upgrade and I think some scrap metal or precious metals.

Also the Picaffetto head at least for me yielded a Dromium container after dissasembly.

It seems, that with the artifact and the 3rd usable fuel cell my route could work if it doesn't conflict with obtaining the other 6 star fragments through a pacifist route, meaning the other chosen endings that follows this playstyle.

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by DuskW4lker:

Hi!

I have a question, previously you listed the following items:

1 200$ Merchant Mic
2 Stone Cube - got star fragment by disassembly
3 Real Artifact - I'm missing this one, will go back to Celic for some Piña Colada.
4 Picafetto Head - I got a Dromium container for this
5 Fuel Cell - got star fragment by disassembly
6 Fuel Cell - got star fragment by disassembly
7 Fuel Cell - a third usable fuel cell?, missing this one

Are you really really sure about your 8th and final star fragment recount? because I only found inside the junkyard a Dromium container, an engine upgrade and I think some scrap metal or precious metals.

Also the Picaffetto head at least for me yielded a Dromium container after dissasembly.

It seems, that with the artifact and the 3rd usable fuel cell my route could work if it doesn't conflict with obtaining the other 6 star fragments through a pacifist route, meaning the other chosen endings that follows this playstyle.

Well, I've taken notes of all these in an extensive spreadsheet and actually did the run myself just before posting so I suppose that yes, I'm pretty sure xD Both the Picafetto Head and the Junkyard can get you one Star Fragment.
Here is my list for Dromium Containers:
1 Nanobots
2 Epsilon Station
3 Extracting from Jeff
4 300$ Lymian Trade Atoll
5 300$ Trade N’ Pay 1
6 Anti-Gravity Wrist Band
7 300$ Trade N’ Pay 2
8 Device
9 300$ Trade N’ Pay 3
10 Straw Chip (Replace Star Fragment)
11&12 Dromium Rod (Replace Star Fragment)
(you only need 5 in that scenario)

Notes on the "pacifist" route (quotation marks because it requires dooming the natives on Celtic - I don't count self-defense in front of a gun as evil or aggressive):

Desert Planet:
Recruit Glacies
Get a Fuel Cell

Merchant Mic:
Buy a Star Fragment

VL-624:
Whatever result (Nanobots can provide Dromium)

Bulkidus Crash Site:
Get the 2 Mining Lasers and an Energy Capsule
Repair the Auto-Forge, mount one laser

Soma:
Get a Fuel Cell

Creon:
Get a Fuel Cell
Dismount Mining Lasert

Ship:
Get Jeff on a chip

Epsilon Station:
Get caught, gaining 1 Dromium Container and 1 Fuel Cell, 4 Energy Capsules, getting Jeff back (or sacrificing his body for 1 Dromium)

Lymian Trade Atoll:
Sell the 2 Mining Lasers
Sell all fighting gear (Laser, Plasma, Shields)
Buy Engine V2

Nugget Node:
Win first place (500-600C, 600 if auto-complete because of an overlook in results)

Trade N' Pay 1:
Buy Engine V3
Sell 4 Energy Capsules
Buy Dromium

Fenton Perth:
Get Stone Cube

Celtic:
Get Kim and the Real Artifact (kinda evil deed though...)

Taleron:
Get Picafetto Head

Grand Central Junkyard
Get captured

Prison
Get Maval and EMP Blaster

Grand Central Junkyard
Get Star Fragment
(Optional: get 30 Precious Metals, see further)

Pi:
Get Sabotage Item
Get Yppenheimer's address

Lyme (countdown to Ortis started):
Exhange package content
Get 200C from powder
Next actions depend on the Dromium count. Two containers can be bought at remaining shops without extensive detour.
It means that, if one didn't get the Nanobots or extracted Jeff's body, we are 1 Dromium short.
That Dromium can be acquired be stealing the Device from Gondolis, or by not sabotaging the Upperspace transport presentation.
The later means no access to the Spacegate since it's a non-combat route, but it grants access back to Lymian Trade Atoll for Dromium.
However, cash will be short, so it requires to either kill Yppenheimer for the cash, or mine the 30 Precious Metals at the junkyard.
In all cases, may get 300C from the Necklace (or you can skip if you got the metal at junkyard AND only have 2 Dromium left to buy)
Rob Bosman for 120C (because why not)
Breakdown of money at that point:
160C on arrival
200C from Powder
-40C from Listening Device (buy then sell)
265C from Blue Heart Necklace (because you need to buy the fake first)
120C from Bosman
For a total of 665C
30 Precious Metals are worth 300C at worse, 390C at best (at Lymian Trade Atoll, by transport hub)
Killing Yppenheimer can grant 600C in addition but that's horrible.
Since I recruited Prod and got Jeff back, and didn't steal from Gondolis, I needed that 3rd Dromium buy, so I had to get the transport hub and 900C at least (so I took Precious Metal).
Personnal result: 372 days
In a not strictly non-combat route, getting the Nuke Launcher blueprint opens possibilities for alternative routes, if one has an excess of Dromium (to actually build it).
Because 2 nukes are enough to regain access to the Spacegate and still get the transport hub.

In any case, the route will end up at 3rd Trade N' Pay shop, either by flight or Spacegate jump, to probably buy a Dromium.
Then go through Smugglers Pass, dismantle what needs to be dismantled, craft 5 Suppressor Beam Disruptors, save all outposts, and beat the game.
PS: Engine V3 is required to get Ortis in time in case of not using the Spacegate, but alternative strategies can be used if the Spacegate is used ;
having and Engine V2 and Syper Engine Add-on is also valid ;
not buying Engine V2 early allows to buy Dromium, but normally 1st place on Nugget Node cannot be obtained with Engine V1;
Engine V2 can thus be bought at first Trade N' Pay shop, then buy Dromium after Nugget Node, and dig the Engine V3 from junkyard

[amessiah]

Anybody can help me with spacegate? I want to jump throught it, but also to plant bomb.. if conveyor not stopped, then bomb will go instantly to gate and boom... Or there note, that some guy will return shortly, so I passed bomb to end of conveyor, after explosive detector, then just turned it off, thinking, if that "coffee" guy will return and turn it on back, so bomb will arrive after I pass.. last one, how I passed it, but I got no achievement of space gate destruction... Seems, gate still intact then?

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by Onryo:

I want to jump throught it, but also to plant bomb..

You can't

[amessiah]

Also, maybe it's possible to sell second spacegate pass to somebody?

[DuskW4lker]

Originally posted by PicciuSolitario:

snip

well yes, a murder and genocide should be bad guy medals

Originally posted by Onryo:

snip

if you just jump through the gate you will get 'traveler', that means not using the bomb (modified for lowerspace). but as previously answered, you have to choose between jumping or blowing it up, not both. Although, I vaguely remember a piece of dialogue from I don't know, Bosman or Yppenheimer, that said that I could jump just before the bomb explodes hmm... maybe it was unpolished dialogue or my faulty memory

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by Onryo:

Also, maybe it's possible to sell second spacegate pass to somebody?

Nope