My Combat Issues

[AeroFunk80]

I want to love this game so bad, but I cannot get past combat. I mean... it's okay. You can tell a lot of time, love and passion went into this game, but dang is combat repetitive and tedious. You don't unlock enough skills, and I find myself just mashing the attack button over, and over, and over with the occasional roll or parry.

Though, I am playing the warrior class (sword and shield). Is that where I'm going wrong? Are other classes more entertaining? Or is combat in general just a tedious button mash? Maybe giving the warrior a bow would help. I know they can buy/craft throwing knives... so I might try that, but man... I'm about 6 hours in and just bored with this already. I feel like they could have been more creative with the warriors other abilities... you have a charged slash (like every other game), an upward slash that causes bleeding (wow...) and then a shield charge... meh. Like... maybe the charge attack does a lunge forward that let's me plow through multiple enemies. Something that stuns to help with crowd control. It's just lacking in special combat abilities...

What I do love... the artwork, the voice acting, story is decent, the customization, crafting, exploration, and all that. But a game that features a majority of combat lacking in combat... not a great thing. I think I can eventually learn a 2nd class, so that might make it more interesting, but at this point I do find myself powering through.

Also... locked chests are just pointless IMO. Like... I get having some, but almost every single chest is locked, and there's no mini-game to unlock them with a lock pick. It's just a matter of having one on hand at all times... not a fan of this.

I dunno. I'm going to keep playing but I don't think this game is worth the $40 price tag. Which I've been saying from the start, but what do the devs care... they got my money. They'll just have to work extra hard for me to purchase DLC or future games with them based on this one.

*EDIT* And just to follow up on this... I know many metroidvania games only have one attack, but the enemies don't have an absurd amount of health. This game gave their enemies a lot of health, so I feel like there should be more substance to combat instead of mashing the attack button 20x to kill one enemy. At least metroidvania games that don't have a ton of combat abilities... basic enemies only take 2-3 hits to kill.

I mean, this is just me brainstorming quickly to make combat more interesting...

1. Combos are timing based. If you just mash buttons, you're going to hit, hit, hit, but if you time each strike perfectly, you do a more powerful attack and maybe a final finisher move.

2. If you successfully parry, you do a flashy powerful strike. Right now you just parry, do a bit of damage and right back into button mashing...

3. A run or roll attack. Run toward enemies and lunge (maybe you unlock this later) or an attack I can do right out of a roll.


Done. 3 ideas LOL

[ColonelBaker]

Agreed. Combat is very basic and does get tedious. It's just one note. Adding a heavy attack could have been nice too, or some type of combo with your attacks so timing would come into play. Unfortunately it doesn't get better with the Warrior as the game goes on. There's a 1-2 skills you might add to your build that will change it up a little, but you're pretty much doing the same thing the whole game. I just finished the game with a Warrior only build.

[Micktory]

I know what you mean. It does get better for the warrior class, there are some good skills later on. But for a good while it's real boring. That said, it still seems to me that the game is heavily skewed towards the wizards and magic. This game is Harry Potter Souls. And I bet the devs are wearing wizard hats and sitting in a circle of candles right now.

[Mike]

Originally posted by ColonelBaker:

Agreed. Combat is very basic and does get tedious. It's just one note. Adding a heavy attack could have been nice too, or some type of combo with your attacks so timing would come into play. Unfortunately it doesn't get better with the Warrior as the game goes on. There's a 1-2 skills you might add to your build that will change it up a little, but you're pretty much doing the same thing the whole game. I just finished the game with a Warrior only build.

This is mostly not true, the warrior has 8 skills and you can equip up to 6 at anytime. So if you only were stuck using 1-2 then that is a player issue not a game issue.

There is way more the just 1-2 skills for your build and I bet you did not make use of the weapon swapping system where even if a skill is weapon specific, you can use 2 and swap between them at anytime. This is where builds get interesting. If you stuck with one weapon the whole time and never made use of weapon swapping and active skill swapping then you missed a big part of the game.

My build was a vangard/flameweaver and I was using all of my 6 abilities for most of my playthrough. I would use the fire weapon buff, the fire self buff, the flame slash, the charged heavy, shield bash and I would combo them one after another in many combat encounters.

Early game combat is pretty basic but by mid to end game builds are pretty different depending on the passives and active skills the player chooses to focus on. The fact that you stuck to one skill tree and only 1-2 skills, instead utilizing all of the games systems is a player problem and lack of player creativity (imo).

[flushfire]

Originally posted by Mike:

The fact that you stuck to one skill tree and only 1-2 skills, instead utilizing all of the games systems is a player problem and lack of player creativity (imo).

The reality is that once you learn to optimize and build for efficiency, most classes do end up spamming only 1-2 skills. You can use as many skills as you want while pretending to be an ultra-elite gamer, but in the end the guy spamming fire bolt or sunder is going to achieve the same result, likely even faster.

[Mike]

Originally posted by flushfire:

Originally posted by Mike:

The fact that you stuck to one skill tree and only 1-2 skills, instead utilizing all of the games systems is a player problem and lack of player creativity (imo).

The reality is that once you learn to optimize and build for efficiency, most classes do end up spamming only 1-2 skills. You can use as many skills as you want while pretending to be an ultra-elite gamer, but in the end the guy spamming fire bolt or sunder is going to achieve the same result, likely even faster.

The game gives players opportunity to make cool builds, people play the most boring milk-toast skills/class and then complain about lack of gameplay and depth. Are you serious?

Its like me playing whirlwind in any other aRPG and complaining the gameplay is boring, Yet is was me who choose to play that boring skill and focus my entire build around that skill.

At the end of the day this game has the systems to make some really powerful builds that use more then 1-2 skills, but players like you will choose easiest build route and whine you choose a boring build to play.

[flushfire]

Originally posted by Mike:

but players like you will choose easiest build route and whine you choose a boring build to play.

Good games reward builds that require a high skill ceiling by making that build the best performer for their purpose.

Bad games you have to RP an elite twitch gamer while actually performing worse than the easy build.

[Mike]

Originally posted by flushfire:

Originally posted by Mike:

but players like you will choose easiest build route and whine you choose a boring build to play.

Good games reward builds that require a high skill ceiling by making that build the best performer for their purpose.

Bad games you have to RP an elite twitch gamer while actually performing worse than the easy build.

Welp I guess by that logic the best aRPGs on the market, souls-likes,...etc are "bad games" because the easiest ways to succed in those games is using single button meta builds that take no mechanical skill.

Take POE for example, that games skill/knowledge ceiling is freaking HUGE, yet even the best players mostly play builds that use maybe 1-2 active skills to clear screens of enemies. Even POE2 has this same issue where 1-2 skills with the right build and your blasting through hordes. In a basic Souls-like you only doing 2-3 things, dodge rolling, mashing light attach, or heavy attack they also much be "bad games".

Your one of those players where a game will have 5 billion different builds, and ways to build your character, yet you always go to the meta, or to the most basic brain dead build. Then you will go whining about how the game lacks build depth and combat complexity because you choose to play that way..... make it make sense lol.

Heck even in Nioh 2, one of the most complex action RPGs, you can beat the game by ignoring 99% of the mechanics by spamming power magic and using other tools to make the game easy mode.

So once again just because you have ZERO imagination and creativity to build an actual fun and complex character in this game, does not mean the games combat is basic in general.

[flushfire]

Originally posted by Mike:

Welp I guess by that logic the best aRPGs on the market, souls-likes,...etc are "bad games" because the easiest ways to succed in those games is using single button meta builds that take no mechanical skill.

Alright, that's fair since I went there first. If the easiest to play is also the most effective then they aren't bad games per se, just badly balanced.

However, you are being reductive when you say popular builds use only 1-2 active skills. I can't comment on POE as I never played it, but using D2's WW Barb as an example, 3 at the minimum: a warcry, WW and occasionally berserk. For PVP possibly 4 - tele from enigma.

In this game effective builds actually just uses 1-2 skills. I'd even say by design, because of the restrictions in place.

There are also more elements in other games to keep the player entertained: in ARPGs you typically get showered with items - that grant skills, belong to sets, define builds, etc. How about soulslikes? Last one I played offered 7 weapon types with actually different heavy attacks.

This game has 5 weapon types (3 in reality) no uniques and no ranged.

All of this is exacerbated in the first third of the game, that's about a good 7-8 hours of gameplay, and creativity has nothing to do with it. The game simply doesn't give access to much at that point.

Originally posted by Mike:

Your one of those players where a game will have 5 billion different builds, and ways to build your character, yet you always go to the meta

Just looked at the guide section and there aren't any build guides for this game lol it's not even that popular to have a "meta".

[DarkLordSen]

16 hrs in and I can say that at some point after about 10 hours you do unlock a few more things for the thief class. Throwing daggers, a chain dagger, and a couple spells. Did it make combat more fun? Hardly. I just walk up to enemies hold forward for fast attack and mash. Most earlier enemies at this point die in 3-4 hits.

Basically it boils down to the devs not having play tested this game enough. They leave the fine tuning of difficulty to the player with the accessibility menu. Which imho is absolute trash design. Just tune the game yourself and let us play the result.

As it stands for me, I'm approaching 20 hours and still haven't found double jump/grapple hook. Game feels like a waste of time/money at this point.

All bosses need proper HP/DMG nerfs. By like a solid 15% and that's after playing for about 20 hours @ 100% difficulty. The default value is not fun to play in any way shape or form. It's a huge drag and I skip most enemies at this point.

Which brings me to the next issue. Checkpoints. For the love of God put them before the damn boss fights. Not after the boss or 10 boards away behind tons of enemies. Like who thought that was a good idea? Damn. Please fix.

Also buff poison. ATM its absolute trash. 4 stacks of poison only doing 1 hp per second? Like are you f-ing kidding me? WHY!? Please make it do proper damage over time.

[Mike]

Originally posted by flushfire:

Originally posted by Mike:

Welp I guess by that logic the best aRPGs on the market, souls-likes,...etc are "bad games" because the easiest ways to succed in those games is using single button meta builds that take no mechanical skill.

Alright, that's fair since I went there first. If the easiest to play is also the most effective then they aren't bad games per se, just badly balanced.

However, you are being reductive when you say popular builds use only 1-2 active skills. I can't comment on POE as I never played it, but using D2's WW Barb as an example, 3 at the minimum: a warcry, WW and occasionally berserk. For PVP possibly 4 - tele from enigma.

In this game effective builds actually just uses 1-2 skills. I'd even say by design, because of the restrictions in place.

There are also more elements in other games to keep the player entertained: in ARPGs you typically get showered with items - that grant skills, belong to sets, define builds, etc. How about soulslikes? Last one I played offered 7 weapon types with actually different heavy attacks.

This game has 5 weapon types (3 in reality) no uniques and no ranged.

All of this is exacerbated in the first third of the game, that's about a good 7-8 hours of gameplay, and creativity has nothing to do with it. The game simply doesn't give access to much at that point.

Just looked at the guide section and there aren't any build guides for this game lol it's not even that popular to have a "meta".

The thing is I have already agreed that early game gameplay/build diversity is meh, its not until you get to maybe level 25 and start mixing class passives that the game really opens up imo.

I will give you this point. This games early and mid game combat progression would be a lot better if skills were not unlocked by killing certain bosses. If the player had access to them at an earlier point, we could mix and match them way earlier in the playthrough.

Even with that point conceded, these are the facts:
- There are 49 total active skills (not including basic attack) and each of these skills have 3-5 upgrade paths to build into (by end game you can max out like 3-4 skills).
- There are 102 Major passive nodes across all of the class trees (these are the BIG passive nodes that really differentiate your builds, not the ones that give just attributes)
- There are 7 weapon types, 5 being the melee weapons, 1 being shield (has active skills), 1 being the caster relics of each of the elemental types.

Now that we have the facts we need to realize that ALL of these things I mentioned can be mixed and matched to create some very interesting builds. Whether thats pure melee (focus on 1 handed, 2 handed), hybrid builds (melee + magic, melee + minions, melee + buffs), pure caster builds,...etc.

The key to actual builds that use more then 1-2 skills in this game is actually using the quick weapon/skill swapping where you can combo them one after the other if you are skilled enough for it.

[Mike]

Originally posted by DarkLordSen:

Also buff poison. ATM its absolute trash. 4 stacks of poison only doing 1 hp per second? Like are you f-ing kidding me? WHY!? Please make it do proper damage over time.

Like with most things in this game elemental damage and DoT effects are weak until you build into them using the passive tree and stacking poison damage onm your gear.

I made a burn/fire build and by end game most enemies were melting by the burn damage alone.

This is not a game where you equip a skill and the skill is the most op thing ever, you have to have decent passives to support your build and upgrade your active skills to boost their effectiveness.

[DarkLordSen]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by DarkLordSen:

Also buff poison. ATM its absolute trash. 4 stacks of poison only doing 1 hp per second? Like are you f-ing kidding me? WHY!? Please make it do proper damage over time.

Like with most things in this game elemental damage and DoT effects are weak until you build into them using the passive tree and stacking poison damage onm your gear.

I made a burn/fire build and by end game most enemies were melting by the burn damage alone.

This is not a game where you equip a skill and the skill is the most op thing ever, you have to have decent passives to support your build and upgrade your active skills to boost their effectiveness.

Dude, Idk if you've ever played a poison build in any other game but DMG is WAY higher. We're talking like 20hp a tick. Not some lame ass 1 HP for 4 stacks. That's ♥♥♥♥ design. More passives? Okay give me the levels LOL xp is slow as ♥♥♥♥ unless you're killing major bosses and even then I find myself stacking DEX vs anything else just to make up for the lack luster DMG. Best passive I've unlocked at this point (LV 29 BTW) is corrosive blade or something? Gives me a free crit from time to time.

I doubt I built my build in the wrong direction. But hell since you're the expert at this game, you tell me.

https://imgur.com/a/v9Vm9QY

[Shio]

Originally posted by DarkLordSen:

All bosses need proper HP/DMG nerfs. By like a solid 15% and that's after playing for about 20 hours @ 100% difficulty. The default value is not fun to play in any way shape or form. It's a huge drag and I skip most enemies at this point.

Also buff poison. ATM its absolute trash. 4 stacks of poison only doing 1 hp per second? Like are you f-ing kidding me? WHY!? Please make it do proper damage over time.

Bosses dont need a HP nerf, rogue just needs a serious buff. Rogue is the worst class by far in this game. Poison does like 10 dmg per stack but the scaling is either not working or something else is broken because even if you put in 10 more dex you dont get more damage.

Originally posted by Mike:

Like with most things in this game elemental damage and DoT effects are weak until you build into them using the passive tree and stacking poison damage onm your gear.

Try poison and see for yourself, it just doesnt do anything. Even with high dex. Even if you had 100% extra damage the damage would be bad compared to other stuff in the game.

Originally posted by Mike:

I made a burn/fire build and by end game most enemies were melting by the burn damage alone.

Would be good if it was like this for rogue, but the class is so gimped..

Originally posted by Mike:

This is not a game where you equip a skill and the skill is the most op thing ever, you have to have decent passives to support your build and upgrade your active skills to boost their effectiveness.

Kinda but your core skills/abilities still need to scale properly.

[Mike]

Originally posted by DarkLordSen:

Originally posted by Mike:

Like with most things in this game elemental damage and DoT effects are weak until you build into them using the passive tree and stacking poison damage onm your gear.

I made a burn/fire build and by end game most enemies were melting by the burn damage alone.

This is not a game where you equip a skill and the skill is the most op thing ever, you have to have decent passives to support your build and upgrade your active skills to boost their effectiveness.

Dude, Idk if you've ever played a poison build in any other game but DMG is WAY higher. We're talking like 20hp a tick. Not some lame ass 1 HP for 4 stacks. That's ♥♥♥♥ design. More passives? Okay give me the levels LOL xp is slow as ♥♥♥♥ unless you're killing major bosses and even then I find myself stacking DEX vs anything else just to make up for the lack luster DMG. Best passive I've unlocked at this point (LV 29 BTW) is corrosive blade or something? Gives me a free crit from time to time.

I doubt I built my build in the wrong direction. But hell since you're the expert at this game, you tell me.

https://imgur.com/a/v9Vm9QY

I'm no expert, but I do know a good bit about build crafting in games like this.

I do have one HUGE tip that will help you get more big passives early on. I noticed you max out the Offensive Nodes on your skill tree early. I recommend NOT doing that, putting one point in and bee lining it to the main passive nodes as those are more build changing then getting 1% "insert damage type" chance.

Also I have not played a poison build but I noticed the passive nodes you have to DO NOT help your posion damage or stack. The "Dark Focus" node adds more Dark damage not poison so that is useless if your focusing on poison damage,

My recommendation just from glancing at the skill tree is looking to build to these passives: Toxic Pool, Noxious Amplifier, Toxic Cuts, Noxious focus. Dark Venom.

Also the skills to get the most out of a pure poison build is envenom, detonate toxin, and reactive blast. I do not remember when those skills are unlocked. Of course stacking poison chance and damage on gear which is pretty obvious.

Thats really all the tips I can give from just going through the skill tree, but now your making me want to try and put together a poison build to see for myself if it is as bad as you say it is.

[Shio]

Please try it yourself. Its rather comical how bad it is.