Am I misunderstanding something here? How does Karma work on the scales?

[セブ様]

I'm trying to make any sort of sense into the libra mechanics, and I understand that I have to line it up at 100, but I don't understand how, or why any items I put works the way they do with each other.

I assumed the Karma number was some sort of modifier and getting 2 of the same numbers would balance each other out, but a 19 item and a 20 has 10 off of the scale, but putting a 17 instead of 20 completely drops it once side? Is there some hidden value I'm missing here? How am I supposed to figure out anything except trying every items I have with each other. Like is 90 still viable or should I be aiming for 100 no matter what?

I have to assume the grading on the bonus probably affects it, but have an epic effect or a good one doesn't seem to be doing that much either.

I tried looking up a guide for this and it confused me even more and had to do with coding. Any help/explanation would be really appreciated. I tried reading around here but it doesn't check with what I'm seeing in game. Like I assume the Karma should be some sort of weight but it doesn't seem to be working as it should? Or it's just stupidly convoluted and unintuitive

[セブ様]

Okay so I was right that Karma was basically ''weight'' but why are they so unbalanced then? Why isn't a 20 karma item anywhere near close a 17? It shouldn't be a full tilt on one side. Unless the effect's rating somehow acts as some sort of multiplier.

I guess I'll go and try looking at the a JP wiki or something then, thanks.

[the chazz]

Forgive me if I tell you anything you already know. I'm writing my full understanding of this.
I'm still on my first run of the base game so I'm not a veteran player, but I think the scales are fairly straightforward. If you are seeking a complete understanding at the code level of how every possible aspect works I can't be of help. For the purposes of playing the game though, it's simple:

- To get to 100 is a simple addition game. The total karma value of one side of the scale has to equal the total karma value on the opposite side. It doesn't matter what the items are, doesn't matter what their bonuses are or how many there are on either side of the scales. You can have 3 items on one side and 1 item on another. As long as the karma totals for both sides are equal, you will have a 100 rating. (e.g 23,13,7 from 3 items on the left scale and 43 from one item on the right scale will give you a 100 rating because both sides equal 43)

- In terms of how close your karma value on either side has to be to get a high scale number, or any number besides 0, yes it's very narrow. The range is exactly a difference of 10.
If you have 260 karma on one side, 270 on the other your total scale number will be 0.
If you have 261 karma on one side, 270 on the other your total scale number will be 10.
If you have 262 karma on one side, 270 on the other your total scale number will be 20.
... and so on
This is not percentage based or anything esoteric like you seem to want it to be? 10 is the total range.

I think you've gotten confused and made an error somehow. In your post you mentioned that if you have 19 on one side and 20 on the other the scale equals 90. This is correct and how it works. Then you said if you have 19 on one side and 17 on the other it "completely drops it one side." This is not what happens. The scale number in this case would equal 80. (As I've said, the range is 10. So, 19 and 17 would be 80 scale number, 19 and 18 would be 90 scale number, etc)

- Regarding what the bonuses do, that does seem entirely percentage based. In two different ways.
1. The closer to 100 scale number you are, the more you get out of each bonus.
2. The bonuses themselves scale off of your base stats. They're not a fixed number.
As far as I can tell the scales are the most important part in boosting your stats. "Attack Power [Epic] isn't just something like a +50 flat bonus. It's -multiplying- your base Attack Power. How much it's multiplying is dependant on how balanced your scales are. 100 being the best.

As I'm still in my first run of the base game I have spoiled myself by reading somewhere on these forums that scales can be "upgraded" at some point (probably in the post game). I don't know what that does or how it factors into anything I've said here.

[セブ様]

Ohhh I see, that would explain why it acts so weirdly to me then. I have no idea what decision they took to think this was intuitive but whatever. I guess it'll be easier to juggle with later and I'll just BS something meanwhile.

Thanks for the walll of text, that's actually legit appreciated ^^

[Giraffeguin]

Also a first time player here - I think when you first get it, it's not too impactful on the game yet and you're probably alright just activating any bonus that sounds good. I personally use the scales to boost my status resistances because petrify and bleed were the bane of my existence and led to combos killing me.

If you continue to get all chests in each chapter you will be able to place more and more items on the scale and this is when you should start planning out more to get as close to perfectly balanced as possible while gaining some useful boosts.

Some things to keep in mind:
You want the bonus to appear only once - if you have it twice, it will get deactivated/greyed out.
However, you can stack different levels of the same bonus. I.e. Epic, Good and no qualifier all of "Bleed Resistance" will strengthen your resistance with all 3 boosts.

[VertVentus]

Originally posted by the chazz:

- Regarding what the bonuses do, that does seem entirely percentage based. In two different ways.
1. The closer to 100 scale number you are, the more you get out of each bonus.
2. The bonuses themselves scale off of your base stats. They're not a fixed number.
As far as I can tell the scales are the most important part in boosting your stats. "Attack Power [Epic] isn't just something like a +50 flat bonus. It's -multiplying- your base Attack Power. How much it's multiplying is dependant on how balanced your scales are. 100 being the best.

Attack +40 (Epic) is a fixed number in the base game. So Max ST, Guard Durability, ST Gain Rate, and Duration Extension are eventually better upgrades due to spamming low cost Possession Skills for i-frames (the two honeycomb shields over your character), Possession Skill buffs being better stat increases (Magic Power scaled, multiplied by Darkness + Demon Rage + Full Burst), and your shield being invaluable on Impossible difficulty.
https://w.atwiki.jp/astlibra/pages/76.html
In the Gaiden DLC, then those stat bonuses are +% based.
https://w.atwiki.jp/astlibra/pages/105.html

[the chazz]

Originally posted by VertVentus:

Attack +40 (Epic) is a fixed number in the base game. So Max ST, Guard Durability, ST Gain Rate, and Duration Extension are eventually better upgrades due to spamming low cost Possession Skills for i-frames (the two honeycomb shields over your character), Possession Skill buffs being better stat increases (Magic Power scaled, multiplied by Darkness + Demon Rage + Full Burst), and your shield being invaluable on Impossible difficulty.
https://w.atwiki.jp/astlibra/pages/76.html
In the Gaiden DLC, then those stat bonuses are +% based.
https://w.atwiki.jp/astlibra/pages/105.html

Ah thank you, I see. I was aware of everything else because I've had to make use of it all to survive playing Hell on my first playthrough. I think I learnt it from reading previous posts here by you actually lol.
On that note, does 3x berserk (karon) stack with + modifier on berserk (possession)? The karon description says it wont overlap with other multiplying skills, but the berserk possession isn't multiplying. I've tested the numbers and I'm pretty certain they stack but I just want someone to confirm it to know I'm not crazy.

Also I'd really appreciate if you could answer this. I've just entered the final chapter and is there anything I need to do here before entering what seems to be the final area? The conversation in this screenshot makes things seem more serious than I think they are. I had already killed the hidden bosses around the world. I've seen people say there's nothing you can really miss anyway once you're in postscript
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3467502112

[VertVentus]

Yeah, Berserk (Karon) is a 3x increase to your base attack, while Berserk (Possession) is a bonus to that value on your stat sheet, so both stack.

You can go inside the final dungeon The Iron Maiden and leave IIRC by teleporting out with the World Tree Blossom, it's really just the hidden bosses that are ideal to tackle at this point (if you've been thoroughly collecting things like the Rare Metals/Scale Pans).
The Iron Maiden itself is a few corridors of boss-like enemies that reward a lot of non-Holy/Wind Force, so you can grind here to max out your Grow tree before finishing the game.

[the chazz]

Originally posted by VertVentus:

Yeah, Berserk (Karon) is a 3x increase to your base attack, while Berserk (Possession) is a bonus to that value on your stat sheet, so both stack.

You can go inside the final dungeon The Iron Maiden and leave IIRC by teleporting out with the World Tree Blossom, it's really just the hidden bosses that are ideal to tackle at this point (if you've been thoroughly collecting things like the Rare Metals/Scale Pans).
The Iron Maiden itself is a few corridors of boss-like enemies that reward a lot of non-Holy/Wind Force, so you can grind here to max out your Grow tree before finishing the game.

I've 100% the game now. Often, whenever I had questions I'd find that you had already answered them many months ago. Thank you for being so helpful and accurate with your information!

Such a great game and I also really enjoyed the dlc for what it was. The endless scaling potential with boards + blue magic crystals will keep me coming back for a little while longer to make number go up. Though I'm not quite pleased with how much stronger the baker's daughter is than our protagonist even though it's fairly justified (I recall early in the base game it was established that female witch magic is much stronger than a wizard's + she was able to retain all her battle experiences during loops of the illusion much like the Hero did with time loops + she was apparently chosen for this fate by the gods).
Still, would have rather a ying-yang balance between them than our protagonist being seemingly redundant. It's like we become the new Gau, a former Hero relegated to the sidelines.