Are Atrus and Catherine justified?

[Visuwyg]

All this talk about Gen being an evil Colonizer, but they imprisoned him Oldboy Style for decades and condemned the native Rivenese population to a life in servitude or underground.

If that weren't enough, Atrus used us to trap Gen in a hellish limbo where he is fully aware but without a body. Then he links out of there with his wife before leaving us to die. No ♥♥♥♥♥ given. Are we sure these two are the good guys?

I found it pretty impressive how Gen was able to create working linking books without the required knowhow. His intention to rebuild the D'ni civilization seemed fairly justified to me, since apparently his mother caused it to collapse?

The game didn't really give me enough evidence of Gens evil colonizing intentions, causing Atrus and Catherine coming off as more cruel than perhaps intended.

Not letting us link back with them is a ♥♥♥♥ move no matter how you slice it.

[genechtagazoink]

i would agree. i was always perplexed by the fact that atrus gives us no means to get out of the collapsing world. unless we propose a theory that the protagonist, or the stranger, is not a mere human, or perhaps atrus perceives them as something else. remember, you appear out of thin air in front of atrus locked in a room in d'ni - to no surprise. during the final minutes of riven the only way to go is to fall down the expanse, which atrus thought is harmless to the stranger and perhaps even the preferable way to go. what if atrus thought of the stranger as some kind of supernatural being, a deity, related to the void? (sorry, this went completely offtopic)

[Henry]

The Myst book fell into the fissure and landed on our world… maybe Atrus thought the fissure would take us back there… he himself once jumped in there as well.
As for condemning the Rivenese to live with Gehn… it’s true, but Atrus wanted to avoid Gehn linking to MORE places to rule with his iron fist…

[Mo0rk]

Originally posted by Henry:

The Myst book fell into the fissure and landed on our world… maybe Atrus thought the fissure would take us back there… he himself once jumped in there as well.
As for condemning the Rivenese to live with Gehn… it’s true, but Atrus wanted to avoid Gehn linking to MORE places to rule with his iron fist…

Yes, and Atrus expresses regret at condemning the Rivenesse people to the suffering of a trapped Ghen.

As for evidence of Ghen's wrongdoing, just read his journals. "I am prepared to sacrifice every last man on Riven, " I believe is one phrase. This strikes you as noble does it?

Also, read the novels if you want more.

But it's true, he is not a one-dimensional evil-doer. For one thing, his worlds collapse not by deliberate intention, but because of his lack of understanding and skill with the Art. And his mission would also be noble if he was prepared to look after rather than subjugate the populations of his worlds. Unfortunately, his obsessive nature drives him to commit all sorts of unspeakable atrocities. He is a fairly complex character.

[Hellish Fiend]

I'm of the mind that if you take the full context, including the novels, it's clear that Atrus and Catherine are indeed the "good guys" here, without question. Are there some questionable choices that you may not have made if this were a Mass Effect-style RPG? No doubt. But these are the choices they made, and we as the player are just playing a part.

During the time between the end of Myst and the start of Riven, Atrus clearly becomes convinced that the star fissure will get you (and a second Myst linking book, for that matter), safely back to where you came from. Him not giving you a choice in the matter was, in his own way, his gift to you, as he decided against risking you chickening out and depriving yourself of what he thought was the only way back. This is of course, because he doesnt realize at this point that the star fissure leads back to the surface world, not far from where his grandmother first made ingress into D'ni!

https://www.mystpedia.net/mystpedia/images/thumb/9/98/URU-riven.jpg/800px-URU-riven.jpg

[keybounce]

My personal view? Looking only at the first two games (Myst and Riven), from the original game?

Atrus felt "these worlds already exist; these people are real". He took someone from these worlds as his wife.

Gehn felt "These worlds come into creation by the art; they have no more reality than a construct".
(NB: both of these are my understanding of the characters, not quotes from them)

Atrus is "I can choose to imprison whomever I want. I can kill my sons if they abuse what I taught them".

Atrus is "Gee, if the star fissure went to your world once, it must always go back there. You get no choice".

Atrus is "Rather than make any attempt to show Gehn how I've learned to write good, I'll just regard him from decades ago, and the imprisonment and isolation I've forced onto him, as reasons why he should never be given another chance"

Atrus is "Gehn's attempt to recreate a dead civilization and their technology is inherently wrong. I'll just write a nice retirement age and not let anyone else make books".

I see Atrus as the evil protagonist. The story is told from his point of view, but if you actually look at what happens? Gehn may have been wrong about pre-existing or created; but Atrus' actions and punishment far exceed any crime Gehn may have done.

Consider "Wizards". That so-called "good wizard" protagonist was a real mean bleep jerk.
This is where I first learned that "protagonist" is not hero. A story can be told from the bad guy's point of view, and make them look like a good guy, *until you step back and look at the situation from a third party point of view*

And frankly? "I've got this great world to retire to, but I'll force you into an abyss on the chance that *maybe* it will send you back home whether you want to or not"? ... That does not sound like a good guy to me.

[Hellish Fiend]

That's quite a hot take you have there. Try not to burn yourself with it.

Honestly, using similar logic and selective reasoning, you can frame any protagonist in any franchise as if they are actually the bad guy. But that only works in a vacuum (meaning you look at it only considering the points you bring up, and not any others).

Since this board doesnt move that fast, I appreciate you chiming in, though.

I'll just leave these here:

First, imprisoning Sirrus and Achenar was a way to stop their destructive behavior without resorting to killing them. They brought it on themselves. And if you know anything about Myst 4, you know that Atrus did not kill them at the end of Myst 1. Atrus clearly shows a greater respect for the sanctity of life than you give him credit for.

Second, Atrus’s view that these worlds are real and their inhabitants deserve protection is morally superior to Gehn's exploitative stance. This shows Atrus is more aligned with sound principles of justice and the inherent value of life.

Third, Atrus’s decision to not give Gehn another chance is based on a realistic and pragmatic assessment of Gehn's past actions, and the likely consequences of his continued freedom. He did the best he could with a really bad set of circumstances.

Last, sending us back through the star fissure was not an arbitrary decision but rather a calculated one meant to get us back home (based on the best knowledge he had, which he ended up being correct about) rather than leaving us as an awkward third wheel with him and Catherine back on Myst.

[HoboG]

Originally posted by genechtagazoink:

i would agree. i was always perplexed by the fact that atrus gives us no means to get out of the collapsing world. unless we propose a theory that the protagonist, or the stranger, is not a mere human, or perhaps atrus perceives them as something else. remember, you appear out of thin air in front of atrus locked in a room in d'ni - to no surprise. during the final minutes of riven the only way to go is to fall down the expanse, which atrus thought is harmless to the stranger and perhaps even the preferable way to go. what if atrus thought of the stranger as some kind of supernatural being, a deity, related to the void? (sorry, this went completely offtopic)

New theory: the player in Riven is a bahro :P
Counter: that would surely be noted in the journals

Gehn's monologue had me convinced to side with him.. when I played Riven 97 as a kid before exploring the bad endings. His character demonstrably hurts those who side with him. The Myst books and Uru describe Dni society (its ruling elite really) having fallen to this mindset, and therefore how any restoration of Dni needs to prevent this.

Gehn is a good villain made great by the writing and acting. How its shown that he spies on the player throughout Riven is also awesome.

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by HoboG:

Gehn's monologue had me convinced to side with him.. when I played Riven 97 as a kid before exploring the bad endings.

This just shows how brilliant an actor that John Keston was, and how well written that sequence was. You just spent hours and hours in a world that is uniformly crushed by the oppressive presence of Gehn, and yet he was able to convince you to side with him!

Kinda reminds me of how some players are so good at games like Among Us/Town of Salem/Mafia that they can get caught and still somehow convince you they arent the bad guy.

[genechtagazoink]

Originally posted by Hellish Fiend:

Honestly, using similar logic and selective reasoning, you can frame any protagonist in any franchise as if they are actually the bad guy.

it's not selective reasoning, keybounce refers to the so called "unreliable narrator" literary trope. most of the (verbal) information we get is form atrus, with his moral judgement, and while the said judgement not being always measured and unexcited, we perceive it as true.

Originally posted by Hellish Fiend:

First, imprisoning Sirrus and Achenar was a way to stop their destructive behavior without resorting to killing them. They brought it on themselves.

atrus's parenting methods is another large cringy topic. seriously, brought it on themselves? i can understand gehn-atrus strained relationship, they hardly saw each other, but atrus's sons? raised, taught, formed by himself? intended to be his magnum opus, but the first problems (which honestly seem like simple teenage tantrums) - and he just stopped to care at all. instead of trying to recover his parenting mistakes, he doesn't want to see his children ever. just put them in a closet like a broken appliance and never touch it again. in my eyes that's infantile to say the least.

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by genechtagazoink:

and he just stopped to care at all. instead of trying to recover his parenting mistakes, he doesn't want to see his children ever. just put them in a closet like a broken appliance and never touch it again. in my eyes that's infantile to say the least.

This is completely false. Sirrus and Achenar trapped themselves in the trap books after they stranded Atrus on D'ni. And then once freed, after some time, Atrus decided to give them a chance to demonstrate that they had changed (again, Myst 4).

Ultimately, you guys are simply choosing the devil's advocate approach and not considering the evidence right in front of you throughout the entire playthroughs of Myst and Riven. These (Achenar, Sirrus, and Gehn) were not good people. They were twisted by delusions of grandeur, power, and control, and cared for no one but themselves and their ambitions. Atrus, by comparison, made his fair share of mistakes. But that's what they were, mistakes, not intentional abuse and evil.

By all means, keep trying to justify your position, as it keeps the forum alive. But your position is untenable and you will never secure it in a way that makes it appear that the antagonists of the story were somehow just misunderstood or otherwise innocent in such a way as to render them the victims.

[genechtagazoink]

Originally posted by Hellish Fiend:

This is completely false. Sirrus and Achenar trapped themselves in the trap books after they stranded Atrus on D'ni.

prepared for them. on brightly lit pedestals.

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by genechtagazoink:

Originally posted by Hellish Fiend:

This is completely false. Sirrus and Achenar trapped themselves in the trap books after they stranded Atrus on D'ni.

prepared for them. on brightly lit pedestals.

Now you're just trolling, but I'll bite. As I said, keep trying, if you want, but it wont work.

As I said already, Atrus’s parenting was far from perfect, and he made mistakes. However, his decisions to leave out those traps for his sons were based on the potential for them to become exactly what they became. Dangerous and greedy. It’s crucial to differentiate between mistakes made in judgment and outright malicious intent. His sons linked to what they thought were ages ripe for plunder and conquest, and you think theyre somehow not the bad guys here? They were guilty of highly destructive ambition, which is well-documented and observable. Atrus's responses were harsh but ultimately necessary to prevent further harm. Your attempts to suggest otherwise fall flat and make you look like a moral relativist that wants to create your own definition of right and wrong.

[Henry]

Oh-oh. I remember a heated argument about Atrus being evil in the Myst remake forum when it came out, resulting in the banning of a specific troll… having some Deja Lu

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by Henry:

Oh-oh. I remember a heated argument about Atrus being evil in the Myst remake forum when it came out, resulting in the banning of a specific troll… having some Deja Lu

Thanks for the warning. I'll keep that in mind!

[genechtagazoink]

your tone gets a bit too harsh, i guess i shouldn't have persisted. we discuss a game and i perceive this discussion as a game and nothing more. all i'm trying to convey is there are no facts, only interpretations, as one dude once said.