[SPOILERS] Whark Idol on Jungle island

[Mo0rk]

Did Cyan remove the ability to open the Whark Idol from the Jungle side? I know for sure it isn't done the same way. I love the new Riven, including the puzzle reworkings; I'm not one of those that wanted a carbon copy of the original and I think the new puzzles make just as much sense in the game world as OG Riven's versions. I'm not sure I would describe at least the animal puzzle as dumbed down either, as it now requires learning TWO numerical systems AND you can't rely on the animal sounds either.
It also makes sense to me that the moiety would NOT use D'ni numerals to communicate their location to Rivenesse. Maybe the fire marble puzzle is simplified.

But I digress... The one issue I do have with the new version is that it seems now to be more linear. Like Cyan are forcing you to visit the islands in a set sequence. Perhaps to ensure that you see certain cutscenes?? But I liked the free nature of the original more. I would love to be able to visit survey island before boiler island

[Adelyne~]

To answer your first question: yes.
I also doesn’t like the exploration linearity of the remake :(
In the original you can go to Jungle Island and visit the village before resolving the rotating room puzzle. Now you have to resolve Temple/Golden Dome Island puzzles, Boiler Island puzzles and Survey Island puzzles before getting to the village.
It’s a bit reversed concerning the rotating dome, you can visit the starry expanse AND prison island as soon as you meet the 1st dome on Golden Dome Island.

[Mo0rk]

Originally posted by Adelyne~:

To answer your first question: yes.
I also doesn’t like the exploration linearity of the remake :(
In the original you can go to Jungle Island and visit the village before resolving the rotating room puzzle. Now you have to resolve Temple/Golden Dome Island puzzles, Boiler Island puzzles and Survey Island puzzles before getting to the village.
It’s a bit reversed concerning the rotating dome, you can visit the starry expanse AND prison island as soon as you meet the 1st dome on Golden Dome Island.

Yes exactly. Everything is gated off until you've done A, B or C. Whilst there was a bit of that in the original, this is so much more like it. Whilst it does make sense to gate some things off, the new Riven feels contrived. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but an annoyance for sure. They should have left the player more free to explore and discover things in the order they choose to.

[Hellish Fiend]

It seems to me like they did a little bit of give and take. Yeah, it sucks to lose some of the early-game freedom that we had, but they did give a little too, such as incorporating prison island into early-game instead of barring it off until mid-to-late game.

Also, I feel some of the design decisions, while intended to primarily control the pace and flow of the game, actually make a lot more sense narratively, such as changing the accessibility of the submarine, for example.

If I could pick and choose things to change back to original, the only thing I would change is to make it to where you dont have to solve the gate room before moving on to Jungle island.

[Mo0rk]

Yeah. I get some of it. But not this. I DO understand the justification for gating off the village. Given the nature and fearfulness of the Rivenesse, it makes sense they would draw up the drawbridges and return the submarine to its home. But why force the player to have to go to Boiler Island THEN survey island to be able to access the sub and other secret areas? That does not make narrative sense to me.

Are you telling me that it would not be a convenience to have a secret way of opening the path to the Jungle island dome, submarine and other areas from the Jungle side? Does it strike you as safe for Ghen and his minions to have to leave the gateway to all his secrets open if they want to go back and forth between the village and the other secret areas?

Give us a way of accessing this, and it gives us a little more freedom and a way of exploring a bit more.

Conversely to yourself, I actually think locking off Jungle island makes sense. It never made sense to me that an intelligent person like Ghen would have his projection room literally right next door to his temple.

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by Mo0rk:

Conversely to yourself, I actually think locking off Jungle island makes sense. It never made sense to me that an intelligent person like Ghen would have his projection room literally right next door to his temple.

I'm not arguing that particular point. I just really liked being able to start a new game and not have to solve the gate room right away. I agree that the change does make sense narratively, like most of them.

I know some people think that Gehn would have left a little switch somewhere to open the Whark mouth, but honestly I dont think people would be saying that if it werent for the original. We're forgetting that Gehn has a whole slew of minions, and it would be trivial for him to organize ingress and egress from his secret areas with or without a button there on the outside.

In any case, Cyan are the professionals here, and as they discussed in their Mysterium interview (link is pinned at the top of the board), they put a lot of thought into these changes. Way more than we have, no doubt!

[Mo0rk]

Oh yes I know. I will defend Cyan forever for their work. As I said, it is a minor annoyance. I liked having to solve Riven again and the experience in the Unreal engine rendition was jaw-dropping. I knew the puzzle solutions from the original inside out, to the point it just became a walking simulator (if you can call a point and click game that!).

And you're right, with multiple people working for him, he could arrange for them to get to a and from his secret areas. I do feel like I'm being a bit pedantic. 😊

[Hellish Fiend]

Not at all. These discussions add value to the game. =D For a game that I really like, finishing it is just the first part of the experience. You should have seen me with Mass Effect. I discussed the story of that game for years (and still do, actually!). I like that people are coming up with interesting ideas for threads here on our little Steam board (I havent come up with very many, myself), and hope it continues!

[Mo0rk]

Originally posted by Eldin:

As someone new to Riven kind of glad it is gated because otherwise I would not know if I am making progress or just wondering around in circles.

Don’t get me wrong. I have the original which I also want to try as well. Just saying with the overall size of Riven it is nice to be able to get a feel for things. Also, having played the new Myst, glad the puzzles in Riven remake can really make you think. I’m sure they do for other people in Myst but having had prior playthroughs of that game it just felt simpler.

It is actually an often heard criticism of the original game that, because it is so wide open right from the start, it can feel like you are not getting anywhere at all, and that you can feel overwhelmed by all of the information from the different areas.

For those of us that solved it that way to begin with, the new game can feel like a simplification of the entire game. It is an unfair criticism I think. I believe that players completely new to the game, such as yourself, it will be just as difficult to solve the world's riddles as it was in the first place. What the new gated areas mean is that it will keep you locked into solving the particular piece of the puzzle you are currently working on which might make for less frustration and a smoother puzzle solving experience.

What returning players don't seem to realise, is that, even though the puzzles have been reworked, they still have advantages that new players don't have. It's easy for these players to think that the new game is somehow easier based on this experience. My own take is that some puzzles are actually more difficult if I were coming at them completely from scratch, whilst others are a bit more simple. Overall, I think it about evens out.

I made this post because, having solved the game, I suppose I would like to do things in the order I choose to, and I felt like the developers were forcing me down the route they wanted me to take.

I would be fascinated to hear your take on how the two games compare once you've gone through and solved them both. I've read loads from players who played OG Riven first, but nothing at all from those who have done them in reverse order.