The New Numerals

[Bardic Knowledge]

So, I've managed to extrapolate one through twelve during my playthrough (and have thoughts as to what zero would look like), and now I'm honestly wondering whether the Rivenese Numerals (not to be confused with the D'ni Numerals introduced in Riven's original release) are a base 13 numbering system, because I can see a way to keep going higher with the pattern established, but at the same time it would grow to the point of absurdity.

Thoughts on how big a single digit gets in Rivenese?

[zemerick13]

Like the D'Ni number system, it appears to be more than 1 base. ( D'Ni being both 5 and 25. ) I would say it appears to be base 3 and 6. 7 appears to be the equivalent of "11" which would be "1+6". Could also argue for base 12.

And yea, no reason to see it stops there. It "could" go on indefinitely. I think until we are given something that changes the pattern, we can't really say any more.

[Bardic Knowledge]

So, the way it works is hard to put into words, but the cycle is something along the lines of:

1 Right, 2 Down, 3 Left, 4 Right+Down, 5 Down+Left, 6 Left+Right, 7 DoubleRight, 8 DoubleDown, 9 DoubleLeft, 10 DoubleRight+DoubleDown, 11 DoubleDown+DoubleLeft, 12 DoubleLeft+DoubleRight. Zero would likely just be the dot in the centre. That makes for 13 single-digits possible with what we've been given, which is why I was thinking Base 13.

The reason I'd argue against it being Base 7 is because the outer layer of the numerals move with the inner. If that was the next digit up, then 8 would be "Outer Right+Down" rather than "DoubleDown." If you can parse that. It's unfortunate that we can't do images, that'd make this a lot easier to talk about.

And suddenly I'm picturing a Base 13 system of numerals whose basis is a clock face.

[zemerick13]

I can understand what you're saying fine:)

I could indeed see a base 13 being possible, depending on how they continue the system. IE does it remain the single circle, but it grows, or would it be 2 numbers combined like we do.

The base 3+6 works despite the outer rotating with the inner because it isn't making full use of all possibilities. Just for the 2 layers of 3 triangles, that would be 6 bits, so 0-63 would be possible. But, it never uses just 3 inner triangles, or as you say, it never moves outer triangles independent of inner. Presumably in this system, 13 would be 3 top right triangles. Basically, it would be "Number of layers of triangles = base multiple, then add the 1-6 value from their positioning."

[jwsstuff1]

Originally posted by zemerick13:

Like the D'Ni number system, it appears to be more than 1 base. ( D'Ni being both 5 and 25. ) I would say it appears to be base 3 and 6. 7 appears to be the equivalent of "11" which would be "1+6". Could also argue for base 12.

This new numbering system drove me crazy trying to figure it out logically and I have yet to really fully understand. To me it's either base 3 (with 3 places for the symbols, left, right and down) or base 6 (with double symbols inside and out). I'm leaning on base 6. (6 totems and 6 animals needed to get to Tay)

We are given 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, and 10 conversions to D'ni. So seeing 1 (right) and 3 (left) being right and left. I assumed (inferred) 2 would be down. Number 4 screwed me up because I was thinking 1+3 but that is the symbol for 6 yet 2+3 IS the symbol for 5! Say what?

The only way I could reconcile this in my mind was if 2 was down and I was correct then in base 6 we see 8 matches 2 but (double) down then given 10 as double right and double down then 4 had to be just right and down which lets me infer 11 and 12 being just double 5 and 6 respectively. So it seems base 6 to me.

As for numbers greater than 12 would we then be tripling to get to 18 and quadrupling to get to 24? This could get ugly fast so I'm not sure.

[Silarn =| +P |=]

I don't know that it necessarily reflects a 'base anything'. D'ni numerals are distinctly base 25 because once you reach 25 you add a new digit and reset the first digit to 0. Yes, there is a pattern of 5 within the 25 digits. We don't have enough information to say the same for the Rivenese numerals. There's a cycle of 3 within a cycle of 6 to be sure, but then it seems you simply add a second layer of tick marks to count beyond that. I assume, once you reach 12, you would just add a 3rd tick.

Such a numbering system does seem difficult to count with beyond a certain point. But the game never gives us an instance of a multi-digit number to give it a true base.

[Hellish Fiend]

Originally posted by Silarn =| +P |=:

I don't know that it necessarily reflects a 'base anything'.

This is correct. The Rivenese number system is not a base number system, but rather an incremental, "tally-mark" system similar to the traditional tally marks that we use in real life.

Hence, if we were to try to expand Rivenese system beyond what we see in the game, at some point it would likely max out and start a new grouping, growing ever longer. In this way, it would even make more sense to view casually, since the groupings would make it more obvious which way is up.

[Bardic Knowledge]

A good point on the tally idea, I hadn't thought of that, but considering the society the Rivenese have, they probably wouldn't need more than tally marks. Just think of how Roman Numerals don't really have a 0. They don't really fit the "digit" definition at all now that I think on it.

So, yeah, it could just be that, until they need to start counting so high that the marks start getting unfeasible, they don't fit base anything, just like what the Romans used.