Monaco Experiment

[TheBMF]

So I did an experiment to test my theory that the car setup is just a minigame and has no impact on the actual simulation.

FP, quali and race in Monaco with the following setup:
Front Wing Angle: 0 (minimum)
Rear Wing Angle: 10 (almost minimum)
Anti-Roll distribution: 1:9 (maximum)
Tyre Camber -2.70 (minimum)
Toe Out: 0 (minimum)

Basically this should give you:
- horrible cornering
- huge traction
- fantastic speed in the straights
- some braking stability, too much for Monaco
- quite some understeer

and THAT in MONACO ... hahaha. Did I win the "sadistic F1 engineer" badge or what?
That should basically put any driver in the wall at almost any turn in Monaco or at least cause a huge spin on the 8th turn just before the Tunnel.

Result: My driver (Bottas) ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about it (bad setup, "this is not drivable" and blah blah blah).
He qualified 8th... so yeah Q3 with this soapbox. No crash
He lost 2 positions in the race (one because of lost time in the pits) so came home 10th. No crash.
I know Bottas is good, but no one is THAT good with this setup. Give this car to anyone to drive and they will take you in the back and shoot you in the knee.

So yeah... minigame.
q.e.d

[LIBER-TEA!!!!!]

We all knew this already but I guess it's good that more and more people are realising how bad this game is

[shrapnel]

Wouldn't it be a better experiment if you reloaded, went through and got an optimal setup, then re-ran the race to compare the result?

[AoD_lexandro]

Not quite. You see the teams bring parts at predefined settings for the track, and the driver just "dials it in". Even the "worst" setup is still designed for that track. It may not be the fastest or the more comfortable for the driver, buts still specific to the track.

For example, A "Monza wing" which many teams make in RL, is a low drag, extra low angled rear wing specifically made for Monza. Does not matter how much angle you crank on it, it will never generate the same level of downforce as a wing designed for other tracks.

Imo thats the reason for the lack of a dynamic setup change to the car in this game. I blame games like Codemasters F1/Forza/GT for things like this, giving people the impression that setup changes alter the car in extreme ways regardless of what is actually fitted.

Should setup alter the cars "stats" as it were?Well yes it should but not in the extreme way that CM games or other "racing" games do. You are not going to gain 30 KPH just by lowering wing angle or similar.

[TheBMF]

Originally posted by shrapnel:

Wouldn't it be a better experiment if you reloaded, went through and got an optimal setup, then re-ran the race to compare the result?

The baseline was my normal run, finished 7th and 12th with the optimal setup after qualifying 6th and 14th.

But the finishing position was not necessarily my point. Pushing a Monaco race with the wrong setup would mean a DNF pretty fast in a race under pressure.

Imo thats the reason for the lack of a dynamic setup change to the car in this game. I blame games like Codemasters F1/Forza/GT for things like this, giving people the impression that setup changes alter the car in extreme ways regardless of what is actually fitted.

While wings may be developed specifically for races, you still could not simply ignore your fine tuning entirely and still hope to stay on track. Just watch the performance and stability degradation in real time when a wing is just a little damaged. They prefer to pit and lose time to fix it. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't care and stay out.

And then there's tracks and there's Monaco.
Understeering in Monaco would put anyone in the wall pretty fast or have them drive very very slowly.
Also high traction in Monaco would make you spin on several corner exits like hell.
This is the reason why any F1 driver could win in Monza with the best car but not all of them could win in Monaco with the best car.

If you think the setup does not make a difference, read details about George's Q3 in Spa 2021. Under-performing car, very daring setup because he had nothing to lose, perfect timing for the out and hop-laps and a much better than average driver. Result: 2nd place. He said himself that they took a gamble with the setup in the team to have more stability and that helped a lot because of those tricky weather conditions.
Lando ended up in the wall for pushing too hard with an unsuited setup.

If the setup had a minimal impact on the outcome, no-one would loose 3 hours in FP on perfecting setups. They do because it matters. a LOT.

[mt82lfc]

I agree partially, they do do it because it matters...alot, but what value do you give to this. The difference between an optimal setup and a poor setup might only be a couple of tenths, but over an entire race, this could be the difference between finishing in the points or not.

It's not going to suddenly promote you half way up the grid though. In any sport where fine margins are significant, you will always have outliers, Russell was one of these, it could have gone terrible but that time it worked...high risk - high reward, but this is not the norm.

[AoD_lexandro]

Originally posted by TheBMF:

Originally posted by shrapnel:

Wouldn't it be a better experiment if you reloaded, went through and got an optimal setup, then re-ran the race to compare the result?

The baseline was my normal run, finished 7th and 12th with the optimal setup after qualifying 6th and 14th.

But the finishing position was not necessarily my point. Pushing a Monaco race with the wrong setup would mean a DNF pretty fast in a race under pressure.

Imo thats the reason for the lack of a dynamic setup change to the car in this game. I blame games like Codemasters F1/Forza/GT for things like this, giving people the impression that setup changes alter the car in extreme ways regardless of what is actually fitted.

While wings may be developed specifically for races, you still could not simply ignore your fine tuning entirely and still hope to stay on track. Just watch the performance and stability degradation in real time when a wing is just a little damaged. They prefer to pit and lose time to fix it. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't care and stay out.

And then there's tracks and there's Monaco.
Understeering in Monaco would put anyone in the wall pretty fast or have them drive very very slowly.
Also high traction in Monaco would make you spin on several corner exits like hell.
This is the reason why any F1 driver could win in Monza with the best car but not all of them could win in Monaco with the best car.

If you think the setup does not make a difference, read details about George's Q3 in Spa 2021. Under-performing car, very daring setup because he had nothing to lose, perfect timing for the out and hop-laps and a much better than average driver. Result: 2nd place. He said himself that they took a gamble with the setup in the team to have more stability and that helped a lot because of those tricky weather conditions.
Lando ended up in the wall for pushing too hard with an unsuited setup.

If the setup had a minimal impact on the outcome, no-one would loose 3 hours in FP on perfecting setups. They do because it matters. a LOT.

Please read what I wrote rather than skim and knee-jerk. It said it does not cause EXTREME changes in the car such as in some racing games. You know a few races ago CL did the whole race with a busted front wing right? He lost the right side endplates, and was still faster than CS. Every team brings a high angle steering rack to Monaco, or else the cars would not be able to turn at the hairpin. Again its about the parts brought to the weekend, those define how the car performs. Setup is dialling in the car to the track with those parts.

Again you are not going to go 30+ KPH faster in an F1 car just by adjusting rear wing angle. You need a whole different wing for that kind of change.

[TheBMF]

Originally posted by mt82lfc:

It's not going to suddenly promote you half way up the grid though. In any sport where fine margins are significant, you will always have outliers, Russell was one of these, it could have gone terrible but that time it worked...high risk - high reward, but this is not the norm.

Let's agree to disagree.

A bad setup will mess up your quali extremely bad. It's more than a couple of tenths.
It may influence the race in another manner (because of dirty air, traffic and longer stints)

But real data actually shows the difference between the first and last setup:

Monaco 2022
FP1: best time Leclerc, 1:14.531
FP2: best time Leclerc, 1:12.656
FP3: best time Perez, 1:12.476, Leclerc second 1:12.517
Quali: Leclerc, 1:12.569
Source: Formula1.com

See the always decreasing difference? that is because the first setups are completely unsuited and then they optimize.
The last tenths are really fine tunings, but there is a huge gap between the first and second practice. That means the difference between a "let's see how this goes" setup and "oh this is better" setup is huge. Even if in FP1 they use known best setups from other years.

Do you honestly think Leclerc just didn't feel like driving faster in FP1 ? And no one did? What's the difference? and don't tell me "track acclimatization" because these guys could drive there with their eyes closed.

No, the team went incrementally optimizing his setup to match his driving and the circuit until they hit the balance sweet spot. He improved 2 seconds from FP1 into FP3. Same Tyres

2 Seconds difference can mean Pole or 15th not 6th or 8th.

[AoD_lexandro]

Yes but his top speed remains similar in all runs. The time gain is not from changing fundamentals about the car. Its the driver becoming more confident.

[TheBMF]

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Again you are not going to go 30+ KPH faster in an F1 car just by adjusting rear wing angle. You need a whole different wing for that kind of change.

No you won't go 30+ KPH faster, you will have:
- faster stable corner exit, which in Monaco is crucial
- later braking point, which is also crucial
- a bit of oversteering to go though turn 6 with a decent speed
- different tyre wear
- lower risk of lock-ups which in Monaco can put you in the wall
- different aerodynamics in clean and dirty air.

nobody gets 30+ KPH because of any wing or setup, and straight speed does not make the difference in Monaco, all the other things do.
Again, you are right, you do have specific parts, but take a look at the FP data above with different setups. 2seconds is huge and they use the same parts. Where's the difference? they run softs in each FP.

[Antikcommando]

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Yes but his top speed remains similar in all runs. The time gain is not from changing fundamentals about the car. Its the driver becoming more confident.

LOL....you are so funny in all your comments on this forum

[AoD_lexandro]

Originally posted by TheBMF:

2seconds is huge and they use the same parts. Where's the difference? they run softs in each FP.

Driver confidence. Ask any driver.

[TheBMF]

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Originally posted by TheBMF:

2seconds is huge and they use the same parts. Where's the difference? they run softs in each FP.

Driver confidence. Ask any driver.

I AM a race driver dude, driver confidence gets you so far but not 2 seconds between first and second practice. There's no significant driver confidence boost after FP1. There is only data, analysis and setup improvement.
Motorsport is a team sport, the driver and his confidence is about 20% of the whole deal.
Put Hamilton in a bad car and he won't win anymore... hey this actually happened. He didn't win all this season because of confidence not because Mercedes messed their aerodynamic concept for 2022.
Got it! you're right.

[Wuffels]

Yeah well, this is not surprising. It is a manager game, not a simulator. I never understood this type of games in reflecting real world physics, but in managing different aspects of a sport team. So yeah, the setup itself doesn't matter ... but what matters is, how high the confidence of the driver is with the setup. To be precise: ~0.1s per 10% confidence. So, the "just minigame" does the job it's supposed to do.

[Antikcommando]

Originally posted by TheBMF:

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Driver confidence. Ask any driver.

I AM a race driver dude, driver confidence gets you so far but not 2 seconds between first and second practice. There's no significant driver confidence boost after FP1. There is only data, analysis and setup improvement.
Motorsport is a team sport, the driver and his confidence is about 20% of the whole deal.
Put Hamilton in a bad car and he won't win anymore... hey this actually happened. He didn't win all this season because of confidence not because Mercedes messed their aerodynamic concept for 2022.
Got it! you're right.

It's exactly that.
My dear friend, you're wasting your time trying to explain things like this to him. He is completely sold on this game and he defends it body and soul. I think he is unable to see any problem in this game.

[AoD_lexandro]

Bull. You are not a race driver. You are arguing a point that makes absolutely no sense. No where did I say setup was not important. Its important in getting the car to perform as intended.

That what setup does. It makes the car perform as the driver intends. The team has already taken weeks working on the basic setup in the simulator and tuned the car accordingly.