Not really finding this Enjoyable

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

There are a few reasons:
1. ATGMs hitting me from beyond their maximum possible range. Example: A Soviet 9M113 Konkurs has a max range of 1150m, I get hit by it at over 1400m, while moving, meaning the operator had to make adjustments on a missile that was out of fuel.

2. Enemies almost always see you before you see them.

3. Allies are pretty brain dead. Sorry but there appears to be a distinctive difference in allied and enemy AI regardless of the side you are playing on

4. Campaign doesn't work right, it keeps dumping me back to the main menu even after successful missions

5. Armor is a Myth. A BMP-1 with a 76mm Heat shell punching the front of my Abrams while if I play the Warsaw Pact Side, shooting the same spot, it bounces. It's as if the player is assumed to always be able to be penetrated from any hit. I mean a Heat shell hitting my tracks should stop before it penetrates the main body of the tank but it's like someone forgot to program in that once the shell goes off it immediately starts losing penetrating power.

6. No Tutorial or Training

7. Enemies are absolutely 1000% always aware of you even if they are currently engaged with something else they will stop and target the player every time. with supernatural accuracy.

8. Rounds in the AAR showing where they are hitting and where the spalling is going only to see the damage read out doesn't match. In one case my commander was killed by a round hitting the rear sprocket and all the spalling/sharpnel from the round went out in a direction that didn't hit the tank at all. But it blew my transmission entirely, scattered the ammo wrack, and killed my commander. Where I am staring at the damage profile and going; those things aren't close to each other and none of them were hit by this round's damage area, Confused.

9. Rounds definitely don't go where they are told. We fired the same shot from the same spot, without making any adjustments and just watched the rounds act like this is world of tanks and landing randomly around where we were aiming. I get tanks have a accuracy variance but this is truly upsetting.

[rclark92672]

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

There are a few reasons:
1. ATGMs hitting me from beyond their maximum possible range. Example: A Soviet 9M113 Konkurs has a max range of 1150m, I get hit by it at over 1400m, while moving, meaning the operator had to make adjustments on a missile that was out of fuel.

2. Enemies almost always see you before you see them.

3. Allies are pretty brain dead. Sorry but there appears to be a distinctive difference in allied and enemy AI regardless of the side you are playing on

4. Campaign doesn't work right, it keeps dumping me back to the main menu even after successful missions

5. Armor is a Myth. A BMP-1 with a 76mm Heat shell punching the front of my Abrams while if I play the Warsaw Pact Side, shooting the same spot, it bounces. It's as if the player is assumed to always be able to be penetrated from any hit. I mean a Heat shell hitting my tracks should stop before it penetrates the main body of the tank but it's like someone forgot to program in that once the shell goes off it immediately starts losing penetrating power.

6. No Tutorial or Training

7. Enemies are absolutely 1000% always aware of you even if they are currently engaged with something else they will stop and target the player every time. with supernatural accuracy.

8. Rounds in the AAR showing where they are hitting and where the spalling is going only to see the damage read out doesn't match. In one case my commander was killed by a round hitting the rear sprocket and all the spalling/sharpnel from the round went out in a direction that didn't hit the tank at all. But it blew my transmission entirely, scattered the ammo wrack, and killed my commander. Where I am staring at the damage profile and going; those things aren't close to each other and none of them were hit by this round's damage area, Confused.

9. Rounds definitely don't go where they are told. We fired the same shot from the same spot, without making any adjustments and just watched the rounds act like this is world of tanks and landing randomly around where we were aiming. I get tanks have a accuracy variance but this is truly upsetting.

My thoughts;

GENERAL: This game is early access / under development. Give the Devs a chance.

To your points:

1. Maybe. I haven't seen that in my game play.
2. BS. Use the terrain better. I am often able to flank the enemy and take them out before they see me.
3. Granted they don't make the best use of cover. Again, under development.
4. No comment. Haven't played.
5. BS. But again, good use of cover and concealment and maneuver will mitigate this. I've seen BMPS take out my tracks, but never seen them penetrate my frontal armor on an M1.
6. BS. That's what the Grafenwoehr range is for. Also, there's tons of videos on YouTube to learn from, PhanPhantasy's are especially good.
7. BS. See #2.
8. No comment. Don't pay a lot of attention to the individual vehicle damage, post action.
9. The further the range, the greater the dispersion. Tank rounds were not precision guided munitions in the mid-80's. IE, multiple shots don't go thru the same hole. I was an M60 gunner in the mid-70's, and always adjusted subsequent rounds off the perceived strike of the previous round. Use Kentucky windage. This isn't StarWars.

[BobobVanBlob]

Hi, I'm going to try and bring my two cents. I'm no expert nor a gamedev but I've spent a fair amount of time in this game (at least 100 hours on the pre-steam builds + 150 on the steam builds).

1. To my knowledge the Konkurs has a way longer range than the M47 Dragon's measly 1000 metres which would take it closer to 3km or even 4km (but I'm no expert), 1400m is just normal range for an ATGM tbh, even the MILAN could hit reliably at that range.

2. It depends heavily on how you drive and position yourself since enemies scan in a cone in front of their turret with different ranges depending on the optic and the conditions (night, day, illumination flare, woods, etc.). Take it slow and use and abuse turret down positions, your Tank Commander has the same spotting AI that the enemy has.

3. the current basis for the AI is shared between PACT and NATO it's just that they get "modifiers" depending on the vehicles, ie: tank with thermals see further in the dark than a tank without. What might happen is that your platoon is tied to your movement and they'll prioritise maintaining formation over firing accurately, take it slow and give them time to aim their shots. The enemy is usually very static in the current missions making it able to maximise its vehicle's effectiveness.

4. Make sure you get a white text message inviting you to open AAR when quitting the mission (otherwise it'll send you back straight to the main menu since the mission isn't over) and don't forget to click the save button once done with a mission you'll lose your progress if you leave the campaign menu.

5. Don't rely on your armour to tank hits, even the BMP can get some lucky shots in on the M1IP frontally if you get hit in the GPS doghouse or the driver's hatch. They are extremely unlikely but can still happen. I've been killed in the M1IP by a PT-76 I did not see once, not my proudest moment but armour is not a guarantee.

6. Patton Pass, Abrams Alley and all the Grafenwoehr missions are tutorials/training missions, give them a try.

7. AIs are blind as a bat on their flanks (scanning cone and all) but they can be very accurate if they see you they are supposed to represent trained crews after all, not newly hatched chicks. They will also look in the direction of the things that just impacted them if they get hit but they don't transmit that information to the rest of the platoon, yet. Remember that your commander has the same spotting AI that they have and in my case I usually spot things before him.

8. I think it's a case of you getting hit in the sprocket first and thinking the first hit was the killing blow when it wasn't. AAR desynch can happen on misses though, showing shots moving "through" things because it snapshots a different point of time. If I'm wrong here and if you manage to reproduce that issue, I'm sure the devs will be more than happy to take that bug into account if there is a bug in the first place.

9. there is some variance to shots so don't expect to put all your shots inside a dinner plate at 2000m. If you were expecting some other game's combat where you can aim at weakpoints in the armour this isn't it.

I hope it answers some of your questions.

[xtremist]

The lowest value i found for the max effective range of the Konkurs A is 1750m, but most sources state 4000m.
It is fairly easy to flank the enemy using the terrain, and sometimes their situational awareness is poor. Today i managed to take out 3 M1s with a t72 simply by getting in their back circling around. When the fourth turned around with its turret, the other 3 were already done. Your commander is also very vigilant in the front hemisphere, almost instantly calling out targets as they become unconcealed, but from the back, not so much.
The effectiveness of the armor and the ai are equally having a statistical element ("luck") on both sides, but i have never seen any "cheating" for or against the player side.
At least 8-10 times i had my Abrams disabled by a single shrapnel through the driver viewport, this is pure bad luck. If you have questionable damage assessments, make a screenshot and show it here, the devs are continously listen to the problems. I have had a problem with invincible vehicles, but a full reinstall solved it.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

Originally posted by rclark92672:

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

There are a few reasons:
1. ATGMs hitting me from beyond their maximum possible range. Example: A Soviet 9M113 Konkurs has a max range of 1150m, I get hit by it at over 1400m, while moving, meaning the operator had to make adjustments on a missile that was out of fuel.

2. Enemies almost always see you before you see them.

3. Allies are pretty brain dead. Sorry but there appears to be a distinctive difference in allied and enemy AI regardless of the side you are playing on

4. Campaign doesn't work right, it keeps dumping me back to the main menu even after successful missions

5. Armor is a Myth. A BMP-1 with a 76mm Heat shell punching the front of my Abrams while if I play the Warsaw Pact Side, shooting the same spot, it bounces. It's as if the player is assumed to always be able to be penetrated from any hit. I mean a Heat shell hitting my tracks should stop before it penetrates the main body of the tank but it's like someone forgot to program in that once the shell goes off it immediately starts losing penetrating power.

6. No Tutorial or Training

7. Enemies are absolutely 1000% always aware of you even if they are currently engaged with something else they will stop and target the player every time. with supernatural accuracy.

8. Rounds in the AAR showing where they are hitting and where the spalling is going only to see the damage read out doesn't match. In one case my commander was killed by a round hitting the rear sprocket and all the spalling/sharpnel from the round went out in a direction that didn't hit the tank at all. But it blew my transmission entirely, scattered the ammo wrack, and killed my commander. Where I am staring at the damage profile and going; those things aren't close to each other and none of them were hit by this round's damage area, Confused.

9. Rounds definitely don't go where they are told. We fired the same shot from the same spot, without making any adjustments and just watched the rounds act like this is world of tanks and landing randomly around where we were aiming. I get tanks have a accuracy variance but this is truly upsetting.

My thoughts;

GENERAL: This game is early access / under development. Give the Devs a chance.

To your points:

1. Maybe. I haven't seen that in my game play.
2. BS. Use the terrain better. I am often able to flank the enemy and take them out before they see me.
3. Granted they don't make the best use of cover. Again, under development.
4. No comment. Haven't played.
5. BS. But again, good use of cover and concealment and maneuver will mitigate this. I've seen BMPS take out my tracks, but never seen them penetrate my frontal armor on an M1.
6. BS. That's what the Grafenwoehr range is for. Also, there's tons of videos on YouTube to learn from, PhanPhantasy's are especially good.
7. BS. See #2.
8. No comment. Don't pay a lot of attention to the individual vehicle damage, post action.
9. The further the range, the greater the dispersion. Tank rounds were not precision guided munitions in the mid-80's. IE, multiple shots don't go thru the same hole. I was an M60 gunner in the mid-70's, and always adjusted subsequent rounds off the perceived strike of the previous round. Use Kentucky windage. This isn't StarWars.

"GIve the Devs a Chance"

They've had a year+ since Early Access Started and Have had time before Early Access Started. I'm sorry but they flubbed this one.

BS constantly screaming is unhelpful, discouraging, and adding to the reasons why I am firmly of the belief this game was not designed by someone who understand how tanks work.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

Originally posted by BobobVanBlob:

Hi, I'm going to try and bring my two cents. I'm no expert nor a gamedev but I've spent a fair amount of time in this game (at least 100 hours on the pre-steam builds + 150 on the steam builds).

1. To my knowledge the Konkurs has a way longer range than the M47 Dragon's measly 1000 metres which would take it closer to 3km or even 4km (but I'm no expert), 1400m is just normal range for an ATGM tbh, even the MILAN could hit reliably at that range.

2. It depends heavily on how you drive and position yourself since enemies scan in a cone in front of their turret with different ranges depending on the optic and the conditions (night, day, illumination flare, woods, etc.). Take it slow and use and abuse turret down positions, your Tank Commander has the same spotting AI that the enemy has.

3. the current basis for the AI is shared between PACT and NATO it's just that they get "modifiers" depending on the vehicles, ie: tank with thermals see further in the dark than a tank without. What might happen is that your platoon is tied to your movement and they'll prioritise maintaining formation over firing accurately, take it slow and give them time to aim their shots. The enemy is usually very static in the current missions making it able to maximise its vehicle's effectiveness.

4. Make sure you get a white text message inviting you to open AAR when quitting the mission (otherwise it'll send you back straight to the main menu since the mission isn't over) and don't forget to click the save button once done with a mission you'll lose your progress if you leave the campaign menu.

5. Don't rely on your armour to tank hits, even the BMP can get some lucky shots in on the M1IP frontally if you get hit in the GPS doghouse or the driver's hatch. They are extremely unlikely but can still happen. I've been killed in the M1IP by a PT-76 I did not see once, not my proudest moment but armour is not a guarantee.

6. Patton Pass, Abrams Alley and all the Grafenwoehr missions are tutorials/training missions, give them a try.

7. AIs are blind as a bat on their flanks (scanning cone and all) but they can be very accurate if they see you they are supposed to represent trained crews after all, not newly hatched chicks. They will also look in the direction of the things that just impacted them if they get hit but they don't transmit that information to the rest of the platoon, yet. Remember that your commander has the same spotting AI that they have and in my case I usually spot things before him.

8. I think it's a case of you getting hit in the sprocket first and thinking the first hit was the killing blow when it wasn't. AAR desynch can happen on misses though, showing shots moving "through" things because it snapshots a different point of time. If I'm wrong here and if you manage to reproduce that issue, I'm sure the devs will be more than happy to take that bug into account if there is a bug in the first place.

9. there is some variance to shots so don't expect to put all your shots inside a dinner plate at 2000m. If you were expecting some other game's combat where you can aim at weakpoints in the armour this isn't it.

I hope it answers some of your questions.

1. And missiles that there are no direct line of sight to you but are arced over a hill by infantry are what then? Sorry but this has happened far too many times where an enemy definitely cannot actually see me but the round is arced over a hill, slams into the front of the turret and goes right in, including infantry based missiles. Which begs the question: Why even have the infantry in yet? If you aren't going to include friendly infantry and infantry without AT weapons, why have them?

2. I have watched enemies advance towards me Rear Facing on in Pattons and at the same time, watched as I crest a hill, flanking a target only to have all 6 of the enemy vehicles turn their turrets in Sync towards me.

3. What Thermals? So far all I get is Night Vision. Pushing the listed button twice doesn't give Thermals nor Does Holding Down the button. Would be nice to know which vehicles have this.

4. Yep, still randomly takes me to the main menu instead. or worse crash to desktop.

5. You saying this is extremely discouraging for how well the Devs know how HEAT or Tank Armor Works. Watching a PT-76 hit the Gun mantle of a Patton or the Main Armor on the Upper Glacius on an Abrams and Penetrate it knowing they have a 76mm Gun, is just laughable. That weapon should never penetrate that area yet right through the thickest points of armor it goes.

6. Then why don't they have these separated out and no it doesn't feel like a tutorial still, as it gives no instructions. If this is their idea of a tutorial it is poorly designed.

7. Again with ALL their vehicles seeming to turn to face you at once, it feels like something is going on there that shouldn't happen Especially when I cannot command, direct, or instruct my AI allies.

8. No, the weird hits are usually the killing ones. Like the Patton Commander Sub-Turret getting hit and killing Commander, Gunner, Loader, and Blowing the Ammo Rack when the shrapnel passes through, maybe it is the desync issue if so that is a real problem with the player understanding what went wrong in the AAR.

9. Oh I'm not expecting that I know that like an L7 has a 0.3 meter variance per 100 meters traveled but at least with a game seeking to be a simulator, the same gun should have the same bullet pull every shot.

[harry]

Check my pinned posts and the gunnery guides.

Generally, Nico is right, but if you are being hit by tanks you didn't see, 9/10 times for a new player this is simply not looking far enough into the distance. It's very normal to engage at 2km and up. This takes a pretty serious adjustment period from less sim-ish games. What kind of ranges are enemies usually hitting you?

the AI absolutely are the same per side and we have added nothing to make them act differently on the player's team. A few community members have decompiled the game to mod it, and can probably verify this for you if you don't want to believe a developer.

What do you mean by us not understanding how tanks work? Could you give some examples of this? Most of the trained tank crews we talk to really liked the game and support us, so it's a surprise to hear that. What is your experience with tanks? We are generally open to authenticity changes if adequate documentation is provided in the bug report.

[KosmosRT87]

The 9M113 has a range of 75 to 4000 meters...

[TiiMe2tell]

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

1. And missiles that there are no direct line of sight to you but are arced over a hill by infantry are what then? Sorry but this has happened far too many times where an enemy definitely cannot actually see me but the round is arced over a hill, slams into the front of the turret and goes right in, including infantry based missiles. Which begs the question: Why even have the infantry in yet? If you aren't going to include friendly infantry and infantry without AT weapons, why have them?

2. I have watched enemies advance towards me Rear Facing on in Pattons and at the same time, watched as I crest a hill, flanking a target only to have all 6 of the enemy vehicles turn their turrets in Sync towards me.

3. What Thermals? So far all I get is Night Vision. Pushing the listed button twice doesn't give Thermals nor Does Holding Down the button. Would be nice to know which vehicles have this.

4. Yep, still randomly takes me to the main menu instead. or worse crash to desktop.

5. You saying this is extremely discouraging for how well the Devs know how HEAT or Tank Armor Works. Watching a PT-76 hit the Gun mantle of a Patton or the Main Armor on the Upper Glacius on an Abrams and Penetrate it knowing they have a 76mm Gun, is just laughable. That weapon should never penetrate that area yet right through the thickest points of armor it goes.

6. Then why don't they have these separated out and no it doesn't feel like a tutorial still, as it gives no instructions. If this is their idea of a tutorial it is poorly designed.

7. Again with ALL their vehicles seeming to turn to face you at once, it feels like something is going on there that shouldn't happen Especially when I cannot command, direct, or instruct my AI allies.

8. No, the weird hits are usually the killing ones. Like the Patton Commander Sub-Turret getting hit and killing Commander, Gunner, Loader, and Blowing the Ammo Rack when the shrapnel passes through, maybe it is the desync issue if so that is a real problem with the player understanding what went wrong in the AAR.

9. Oh I'm not expecting that I know that like an L7 has a 0.3 meter variance per 100 meters traveled but at least with a game seeking to be a simulator, the same gun should have the same bullet pull every shot.

1. I have only seen this happen twice, both times i did it myself. Now, the AI has some sense of object permanence, they can and will still fire at you through buildings and other cover within a few seconds of you disappearing from line of sight. So if you had line of sight and were spotted before going back behind the ridge i suppose it is not impossible. Still, especially with your description, i find it highly unlkely enough to say "screenshot or didn't happen".

2. How can they advace towards you while facing their rear towards you? How did you see their rearward advancement before cresting a hill, only to be surprised by them? Sorry but this sounds like you messed up big time and just can't admit it.

3. Both versions of the M1 and the Bradley have thermals you can switch to on their main sights. Iirc the US dismounted ATGM launcher also has thermals. The east german forces exclusively have night vision sights. And all combat forces have night vision in theirbinocular view, regardless of the team.

4. Randomly happens, i couldn't find a cause or a pattern on why or when it happens yet. Just sometimes i randomly end up in the main menu instead of the campaign. As said before, its best to just save after every mission. The early access nature of this game is just that; unpolished and unfinished.

5. No vehicle is invincible. They still have weak spots, even the M60 and the M1. Never seen anything pen the gun mantlet, APFSDS or HEAT from any gun, both in the M1 or M60. And again I have to say "screenshot or didn't happen", most likely you were hit in the drivers hatch or turret ring. I can however agree on that HEAT rounds sometimes seem to have too high penetration, especially against layered/spaced armor.

6. What kind of tutorial are you looking for, WASD is for driving your vehicle? If so then you might want to start on something simpler like need for speed. If you want a tutorial about the different ammo types or how ballistics work, i have to say i've never seen a tutorial about ammo ingame in any game so far. Either you are into tanks and how they work already and therefor know that stuff beforehand. or you don't, then again maybe start with something else, go for some learning by doing or look up how these things work online.

7. Can agree the AI allies are not very bright, but they got a substantial improvement last patch by reversing instead of stright up turning around when too far forward in formation. But for all enemy AI turning their turrets on you you have to mess up hard and rush out alone right in their forward view cones. Again seems like a straight up skill issue on your end and nothing else.

8. Might be desync, or a stray piece of shrapnel hitting something explosive like ammo and detonating the whole rack, can't tell without seeing it.

9. Can't comment because it depends on both the gun and the round fired. When firing 2 shots without adjustment the recoil could have changed the alignment of the gun, turret or hull. If even only by a few millimeters, that might translate to a variance of meters at range.

[Lancer VI]

As an old 11M whose fired a few rounds as a Brad gunner back in the day, this game is great.

I won't say "git gud" and there are certainly rough areas to be polished, but that is true of any simulation.

Having said that; stick with it and learn. It is quite a good sim, though I kind of agree with your campaign assessment. Maybe it's because I'm a dumb infantryman from way back, but it isn't really clear that I've completed my obj, because some tracked T-55 that can't move 3 km away is unlocated and I don't get the checkboxes checked, but hey; early access. Having said that, the campaign is certainly the most frustrating aspect that I'm dealing with so far.

I love the game though. The crew dialogue during an engagement is the very best. Absolutely love this game.

Cheers.

[dfebruary]

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

Originally posted by rclark92672:

My thoughts;

GENERAL: This game is early access / under development. Give the Devs a chance.

To your points:

1. Maybe. I haven't seen that in my game play.
2. BS. Use the terrain better. I am often able to flank the enemy and take them out before they see me.
3. Granted they don't make the best use of cover. Again, under development.
4. No comment. Haven't played.
5. BS. But again, good use of cover and concealment and maneuver will mitigate this. I've seen BMPS take out my tracks, but never seen them penetrate my frontal armor on an M1.
6. BS. That's what the Grafenwoehr range is for. Also, there's tons of videos on YouTube to learn from, PhanPhantasy's are especially good.
7. BS. See #2.
8. No comment. Don't pay a lot of attention to the individual vehicle damage, post action.
9. The further the range, the greater the dispersion. Tank rounds were not precision guided munitions in the mid-80's. IE, multiple shots don't go thru the same hole. I was an M60 gunner in the mid-70's, and always adjusted subsequent rounds off the perceived strike of the previous round. Use Kentucky windage. This isn't StarWars.

"GIve the Devs a Chance"

They've had a year+ since Early Access Started and Have had time before Early Access Started. I'm sorry but they flubbed this one.

BS constantly screaming is unhelpful, discouraging, and adding to the reasons why I am firmly of the belief this game was not designed by someone who understand how tanks work.

The game has been in early access for more than a year and the devs added a lot in that time, they added the PT-76, BMP-1P and BMP-2, they improved the performance highly, they improved how the game looks, they added helicopters (there is currently cobras, MI-8s, and MI-24s in some instant action missions, US recon helicopters also make an appearance in 2 or 3 instant action missions but they are a bit unfinished), they added German voice acting, they added CAS and re-did the map UI, and in the next update which is coming in december/january they will add smoke screens, wind which will influence smoke screens and the T-64A

[dfebruary]

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

Originally posted by rclark92672:

My thoughts;

GENERAL: This game is early access / under development. Give the Devs a chance.

To your points:

1. Maybe. I haven't seen that in my game play.
2. BS. Use the terrain better. I am often able to flank the enemy and take them out before they see me.
3. Granted they don't make the best use of cover. Again, under development.
4. No comment. Haven't played.
5. BS. But again, good use of cover and concealment and maneuver will mitigate this. I've seen BMPS take out my tracks, but never seen them penetrate my frontal armor on an M1.
6. BS. That's what the Grafenwoehr range is for. Also, there's tons of videos on YouTube to learn from, PhanPhantasy's are especially good.
7. BS. See #2.
8. No comment. Don't pay a lot of attention to the individual vehicle damage, post action.
9. The further the range, the greater the dispersion. Tank rounds were not precision guided munitions in the mid-80's. IE, multiple shots don't go thru the same hole. I was an M60 gunner in the mid-70's, and always adjusted subsequent rounds off the perceived strike of the previous round. Use Kentucky windage. This isn't StarWars.

"GIve the Devs a Chance"

They've had a year+ since Early Access Started and Have had time before Early Access Started. I'm sorry but they flubbed this one.

BS constantly screaming is unhelpful, discouraging, and adding to the reasons why I am firmly of the belief this game was not designed by someone who understand how tanks work.

The game was designed by someone who doesn't know how tanks work? As far as i know the lead developer worked for the military as a simulator developer, and multiple big shots in the tank community (with many veterans among them) support the game

[Pindie]

As for getting hit over a hill only used to happened with BMP-1s firing at a steep trajectory. It might have been fixed since.

There are some issues with ATGMs and line of sight but they are slight and mostly involve obscuration by trees, bushes and fences not breaking the line of sight (as a matter of fact the wire should break before the line of sight). There is also issue of ATGM firing as soon as the tube is visible but without line of sight from optic.
I would add lack of obscuration from round hits and missile continuing straight after LoS was lost to the missile, or for that matter after the Bradley firing the TOW exploded and is no longer providing the guiding signal the TOW continuing on straight line.

I have fired TOW between tightly packed branches and it never broke the wire and I could also still control it while the missile was hidden behind a tree.

On general spotting: the enemy has some edge when looking trough vegetation. I would say it makes sense for thermals since you can argue etc etc but Pact forces can see you even if there is a tree halfway between you hiding them from you. The LoS check is biased in AI favor.

[Case]

Originally posted by TiiMe2tell:

Originally posted by FiauraTheTankGirl:

1. And missiles that there are no direct line of sight to you but are arced over a hill by infantry are what then? Sorry but this has happened far too many times where an enemy definitely cannot actually see me but the round is arced over a hill, slams into the front of the turret and goes right in, including infantry based missiles. Which begs the question: Why even have the infantry in yet? If you aren't going to include friendly infantry and infantry without AT weapons, why have them?

2. I have watched enemies advance towards me Rear Facing on in Pattons and at the same time, watched as I crest a hill, flanking a target only to have all 6 of the enemy vehicles turn their turrets in Sync towards me.

3. What Thermals? So far all I get is Night Vision. Pushing the listed button twice doesn't give Thermals nor Does Holding Down the button. Would be nice to know which vehicles have this.

4. Yep, still randomly takes me to the main menu instead. or worse crash to desktop.

5. You saying this is extremely discouraging for how well the Devs know how HEAT or Tank Armor Works. Watching a PT-76 hit the Gun mantle of a Patton or the Main Armor on the Upper Glacius on an Abrams and Penetrate it knowing they have a 76mm Gun, is just laughable. That weapon should never penetrate that area yet right through the thickest points of armor it goes.

6. Then why don't they have these separated out and no it doesn't feel like a tutorial still, as it gives no instructions. If this is their idea of a tutorial it is poorly designed.

7. Again with ALL their vehicles seeming to turn to face you at once, it feels like something is going on there that shouldn't happen Especially when I cannot command, direct, or instruct my AI allies.

8. No, the weird hits are usually the killing ones. Like the Patton Commander Sub-Turret getting hit and killing Commander, Gunner, Loader, and Blowing the Ammo Rack when the shrapnel passes through, maybe it is the desync issue if so that is a real problem with the player understanding what went wrong in the AAR.

9. Oh I'm not expecting that I know that like an L7 has a 0.3 meter variance per 100 meters traveled but at least with a game seeking to be a simulator, the same gun should have the same bullet pull every shot.

1. I have only seen this happen twice, both times i did it myself. Now, the AI has some sense of object permanence, they can and will still fire at you through buildings and other cover within a few seconds of you disappearing from line of sight. So if you had line of sight and were spotted before going back behind the ridge i suppose it is not impossible. Still, especially with your description, i find it highly unlkely enough to say "screenshot or didn't happen".

2. How can they advace towards you while facing their rear towards you? How did you see their rearward advancement before cresting a hill, only to be surprised by them? Sorry but this sounds like you messed up big time and just can't admit it.

3. Both versions of the M1 and the Bradley have thermals you can switch to on their main sights. Iirc the US dismounted ATGM launcher also has thermals. The east german forces exclusively have night vision sights. And all combat forces have night vision in theirbinocular view, regardless of the team.

4. Randomly happens, i couldn't find a cause or a pattern on why or when it happens yet. Just sometimes i randomly end up in the main menu instead of the campaign. As said before, its best to just save after every mission. The early access nature of this game is just that; unpolished and unfinished.

5. No vehicle is invincible. They still have weak spots, even the M60 and the M1. Never seen anything pen the gun mantlet, APFSDS or HEAT from any gun, both in the M1 or M60. And again I have to say "screenshot or didn't happen", most likely you were hit in the drivers hatch or turret ring. I can however agree on that HEAT rounds sometimes seem to have too high penetration, especially against layered/spaced armor.

6. What kind of tutorial are you looking for, WASD is for driving your vehicle? If so then you might want to start on something simpler like need for speed. If you want a tutorial about the different ammo types or how ballistics work, i have to say i've never seen a tutorial about ammo ingame in any game so far. Either you are into tanks and how they work already and therefor know that stuff beforehand. or you don't, then again maybe start with something else, go for some learning by doing or look up how these things work online.

7. Can agree the AI allies are not very bright, but they got a substantial improvement last patch by reversing instead of stright up turning around when too far forward in formation. But for all enemy AI turning their turrets on you you have to mess up hard and rush out alone right in their forward view cones. Again seems like a straight up skill issue on your end and nothing else.

8. Might be desync, or a stray piece of shrapnel hitting something explosive like ammo and detonating the whole rack, can't tell without seeing it.

9. Can't comment because it depends on both the gun and the round fired. When firing 2 shots without adjustment the recoil could have changed the alignment of the gun, turret or hull. If even only by a few millimeters, that might translate to a variance of meters at range.

I had a T-55 punch through the mantle of my Abrams like 3 patches back. Otherwise I haven't seen it, just to do the Devil's Advocate thing. That was also at about 600 meters as I stumbled across them looking for something else.

I'm going to take a different track here OP. What ranges are you noticing the enemy penning armor when you don't think they should be? Are we talking knife fighting ranges or are you getting plinked at 2k out?

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

Originally posted by Case:

Originally posted by TiiMe2tell:

1. I have only seen this happen twice, both times i did it myself. Now, the AI has some sense of object permanence, they can and will still fire at you through buildings and other cover within a few seconds of you disappearing from line of sight. So if you had line of sight and were spotted before going back behind the ridge i suppose it is not impossible. Still, especially with your description, i find it highly unlkely enough to say "screenshot or didn't happen".

2. How can they advace towards you while facing their rear towards you? How did you see their rearward advancement before cresting a hill, only to be surprised by them? Sorry but this sounds like you messed up big time and just can't admit it.

3. Both versions of the M1 and the Bradley have thermals you can switch to on their main sights. Iirc the US dismounted ATGM launcher also has thermals. The east german forces exclusively have night vision sights. And all combat forces have night vision in theirbinocular view, regardless of the team.

4. Randomly happens, i couldn't find a cause or a pattern on why or when it happens yet. Just sometimes i randomly end up in the main menu instead of the campaign. As said before, its best to just save after every mission. The early access nature of this game is just that; unpolished and unfinished.

5. No vehicle is invincible. They still have weak spots, even the M60 and the M1. Never seen anything pen the gun mantlet, APFSDS or HEAT from any gun, both in the M1 or M60. And again I have to say "screenshot or didn't happen", most likely you were hit in the drivers hatch or turret ring. I can however agree on that HEAT rounds sometimes seem to have too high penetration, especially against layered/spaced armor.

6. What kind of tutorial are you looking for, WASD is for driving your vehicle? If so then you might want to start on something simpler like need for speed. If you want a tutorial about the different ammo types or how ballistics work, i have to say i've never seen a tutorial about ammo ingame in any game so far. Either you are into tanks and how they work already and therefor know that stuff beforehand. or you don't, then again maybe start with something else, go for some learning by doing or look up how these things work online.

7. Can agree the AI allies are not very bright, but they got a substantial improvement last patch by reversing instead of stright up turning around when too far forward in formation. But for all enemy AI turning their turrets on you you have to mess up hard and rush out alone right in their forward view cones. Again seems like a straight up skill issue on your end and nothing else.

8. Might be desync, or a stray piece of shrapnel hitting something explosive like ammo and detonating the whole rack, can't tell without seeing it.

9. Can't comment because it depends on both the gun and the round fired. When firing 2 shots without adjustment the recoil could have changed the alignment of the gun, turret or hull. If even only by a few millimeters, that might translate to a variance of meters at range.

I had a T-55 punch through the mantle of my Abrams like 3 patches back. Otherwise I haven't seen it, just to do the Devil's Advocate thing. That was also at about 600 meters as I stumbled across them looking for something else.

I'm going to take a different track here OP. What ranges are you noticing the enemy penning armor when you don't think they should be? Are we talking knife fighting ranges or are you getting plinked at 2k out?

It's always a HEAT shell so the range doesn't matter. Though if you must know 900-1100 meters is my normal range I've noticed my engagements start at and maintain that distance.

I've noticed heat shells passing through objects, like stone fences or exploding in weird places on the tank. Like INSIDE of a Road Wheel or the Idler Wheel after passing through the Track and the Overhang Armor Above the Track. In some cases I am noticing a HEAT shell that isn't a tandem warhead exploding twice; though from that I think they have a explosion for the shell and then an explosion for Shrapnel and Spalling.

Another piece I notice is that between the Gun Mantle and the Main Turret Armor of the Abrams, there is apparently NO ARMOR inside that slit and small single damage tracers pass through it and kill people. Like it treats it as if it were open air.

I'm noticing a lot of it has to do with weird points of impact that doesn't make sense.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

Originally posted by harry:

Check my pinned posts and the gunnery guides.

Generally, Nico is right, but if you are being hit by tanks you didn't see, 9/10 times for a new player this is simply not looking far enough into the distance. It's very normal to engage at 2km and up. This takes a pretty serious adjustment period from less sim-ish games. What kind of ranges are enemies usually hitting you?

the AI absolutely are the same per side and we have added nothing to make them act differently on the player's team. A few community members have decompiled the game to mod it, and can probably verify this for you if you don't want to believe a developer.

What do you mean by us not understanding how tanks work? Could you give some examples of this? Most of the trained tank crews we talk to really liked the game and support us, so it's a surprise to hear that. What is your experience with tanks? We are generally open to authenticity changes if adequate documentation is provided in the bug report.

Recorded a Round to Show you some of the stuff that I wasn't sure about, I am very sick right and do ramble, fair warning and most of the video is AAR.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SR_6kQ0d-KDoqHIae5sNvh9qqN6MU6k2?usp=sharing