Smoke and NATO Smoke Screens

[exltcusa]

All right. I served as a company grade officer in Germany, 1980-83, and I am a student of military history. I have reviewed all the DoD and DA manuals on the OPFOR and the Soviet Army from the 1980s and early 1990s. I have gone through all my Jane's Weapons Systems, Armour and Artillery, Armour and Artillery Upgrade Systems. I went through all of Zaloga's books about WP and Soviet AFVs and artillery. Not once did I find a reference to a Soviet smoke screen capability in the period BEFORE 1992 that was sufficiently dense to block rangefinder or designating lasers. Keep in mind the Soviet tube fired ATGMs RELIED on laser guidance. Soviet smoke doctrine, tactical, was to use smoke for maneuver and concealment. All Soviet MBTs had diesel squirted smoke generation on their engines. This was a WHITE smoke. All the Soviet MBTs by 1991 but not before about 1986, had smoke grenade launchers for WHITE smoke. NOT white or red phosphorus. From the late 1970s, NATO doctrine was to smoke enemy or suspected enemy positions and to fight from INSIDE smoke. Thermal sights would detect enemy AFVs at up to 5,000 meters and the fire control system would get a solution from 3,000 meters down. That included lasing the target. So where in the references did the Soviets have counter-laser/thermal smoke before 1999?

[nick93ts]

I can't help but notice the glaring absence of any real Soviet sources or up-to-date English sources.

[Bluehawk]

Well, the Tucha-902 system and its associated 3D6 grenade you see in-game went into service in 1979, and the 3D6 grenade contained "a smoke-producing compound designated P50-02-7 consisting of Hexachlorobenzene, zinc oxide and aluminium-magnesium alloy. The dark grey smoke emitted from the grenade is toxic to humans through skin absorption. The smoke is opaque to electromagnetic radiation in the visual spectrum (0.4-0.75 microns) and the near-infrared spectrum (0.75-1.4 microns). This makes it an effective barrier against active infrared imaging devices that rely on infrared illumination and it is particularly useful against laser rangefinders as the smoke will scatter the infrared laser. The spectral interference range of 3D6 is 0.4-1.56 microns. The smoke is transparent to far infrared radiation such as the 8-12 micron spectrum used by thermal imaging sights on tanks and reconnaissance systems. The smoke screen produced by 3D6 will also disrupt the infrared guidance system of wire-guided missiles and also prevent laser-homing missiles from locating the tank by scattering the laser designation beam before it reaches the tank and prevents a coherent signal from being reflected towards the missile." according to the usually-reliable Tankograd blog.

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/p/81mm-smoke-grenades.html

[pav_novak]

Originally posted by exltcusa:

All right. I served as a company grade officer in Germany, 1980-83, and I am a student of military history. I have reviewed all the DoD and DA manuals on the OPFOR and the Soviet Army from the 1980s and early 1990s. I have gone through all my Jane's Weapons Systems, Armour and Artillery, Armour and Artillery Upgrade Systems. I went through all of Zaloga's books about WP and Soviet AFVs and artillery. Not once did I find a reference to a Soviet smoke screen capability in the period BEFORE 1992 that was sufficiently dense to block rangefinder or designating lasers. Keep in mind the Soviet tube fired ATGMs RELIED on laser guidance. Soviet smoke doctrine, tactical, was to use smoke for maneuver and concealment. All Soviet MBTs had diesel squirted smoke generation on their engines. This was a WHITE smoke. All the Soviet MBTs by 1991 but not before about 1986, had smoke grenade launchers for WHITE smoke. NOT white or red phosphorus. From the late 1970s, NATO doctrine was to smoke enemy or suspected enemy positions and to fight from INSIDE smoke. Thermal sights would detect enemy AFVs at up to 5,000 meters and the fire control system would get a solution from 3,000 meters down. That included lasing the target. So where in the references did the Soviets have counter-laser/thermal smoke before 1999?

Presence of smoke grenade launchers on soviet tanks is very easy to spot. You can clearly see them on east german T-72 in their 1989 military parade which can be found on youtube. So year 1992 as introduction is wrong. Not to mention that also other warsaw pact armies had introduced smoke grenade launchers on their tanks in 1980s.

The question is thus not of existence of this capability but rather how much it was available in 1985. Specifically for East German tanks. And here I can say that the first basic T-72 with optical rangefinder obtained by East Germany in 1978 from the USSR did not have them.

Also further East German T-72 which differed from the basic ones with laser rangefinder (in soviet documents designated as early T-72M) still lacked smoke grenade launchers (no matter if delivered from the USSR, Czechoslovakia or Poland).

But in 1983 East Germany started to receive late subvariant of T-72M from the USSR and these finally had smoke grenade launchers. And from 1985 East Germany started to receive late T-72M with smoke grenade launchers also from production in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Total number T-72 variants delivered to East Germany by the end of year 1985 (including command variants):

- 35x basic T-72 with optical rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, gill side armor from soviet production

- 31x early T-72M (in east german service designated still T-72) with laser rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts from soviet production

- 219x early T-72M (in east german service designated still T-72) with laser rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, gill side armor from czechoslovak and polish production

- 69x late T-72M (in east german service designated T-72M) with laser rangefinder, 44 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts and smoke grenade launchers from soviet production

- 9x late T-72M (in east german service designated T-72M) with laser rangefinder, 44 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts and smoke grenade launchers from czechoslovak/polish production

[DopaTrain]

Jesus Christ.

[SaLaĐiN]

The smoke grenade launchers as we know them today, were first introduced on the T-62 tank, which entered service in 1961. Before that, they were using the HCE system.


Secondly, in the 70s, thermal imaging was incredibly rare, expensive and unreliable and barely used. So nice story. That 5000 m detection number is a nice story too, it is like my wifi, it is supposed theoretically to have the range of 50 m, but after 10m I loose the signal.

[Taliban Joe]

Originally posted by exltcusa:

All right. I served as a company grade officer in Germany, 1980-83, and I am a student of military history. I have reviewed all the DoD and DA manuals on the OPFOR and the Soviet Army from the 1980s and early 1990s. I have gone through all my Jane's Weapons Systems, Armour and Artillery, Armour and Artillery Upgrade Systems. I went through all of Zaloga's books about WP and Soviet AFVs and artillery. Not once did I find a reference to a Soviet smoke screen capability in the period BEFORE 1992 that was sufficiently dense to block rangefinder or designating lasers. Keep in mind the Soviet tube fired ATGMs RELIED on laser guidance. Soviet smoke doctrine, tactical, was to use smoke for maneuver and concealment. All Soviet MBTs had diesel squirted smoke generation on their engines. This was a WHITE smoke. All the Soviet MBTs by 1991 but not before about 1986, had smoke grenade launchers for WHITE smoke. NOT white or red phosphorus. From the late 1970s, NATO doctrine was to smoke enemy or suspected enemy positions and to fight from INSIDE smoke. Thermal sights would detect enemy AFVs at up to 5,000 meters and the fire control system would get a solution from 3,000 meters down. That included lasing the target. So where in the references did the Soviets have counter-laser/thermal smoke before 1999?

new account and a private profile? gtfoh troll

[acr11thcav]

Having been on M48A5 then M60A3 and then M1A1s as enlisted and then as an officer for over 15 years inside of a tank, there are many aspects of this game that can be great if done properly as a game or just another arcade hack. I question how much the developers have actually done any research in tank warfare. As far as getting into the weeds it would take an amazing amount of memory and programming to get to the level of actual Army simulators that we trained on. What it does come down to is that is this a time line play or pick a battle and a tank play game? The controls on this game are confusing and I cannot tell what position I am supposed to be as someone yells orders. It would be in the developers best interest to talk to those that have actually been in armor and in the military if they want a great game, or just state this is a cheap hack game.

[dfebruary]

Originally posted by acr11thcav:

Having been on M48A5 then M60A3 and then M1A1s as enlisted and then as an officer for over 15 years inside of a tank, there are many aspects of this game that can be great if done properly as a game or just another arcade hack. I question how much the developers have actually done any research in tank warfare. As far as getting into the weeds it would take an amazing amount of memory and programming to get to the level of actual Army simulators that we trained on. What it does come down to is that is this a time line play or pick a battle and a tank play game? The controls on this game are confusing and I cannot tell what position I am supposed to be as someone yells orders. It would be in the developers best interest to talk to those that have actually been in armor and in the military if they want a great game, or just state this is a cheap hack game.

They talk to people that have been in armor and in the military all the time, the discord is filled with them and they even have their own separate channel, and i think one of the developers worked on military tank sims before

Also if you think something in this game is unrealistic maybe name what it is instead of talking about it vaguely.

Also wdym "controls on this game are confusing" they are extremely simple, the whole point of this game is being an accessible and cheap simulator (unlike "steel beasts"), i was able to get the hang of it in my very first mission and killed an M1 with a T-55A

[bloody_gums]

Originally posted by pav_novak:

Originally posted by exltcusa:

All right. I served as a company grade officer in Germany, 1980-83, and I am a student of military history. I have reviewed all the DoD and DA manuals on the OPFOR and the Soviet Army from the 1980s and early 1990s. I have gone through all my Jane's Weapons Systems, Armour and Artillery, Armour and Artillery Upgrade Systems. I went through all of Zaloga's books about WP and Soviet AFVs and artillery. Not once did I find a reference to a Soviet smoke screen capability in the period BEFORE 1992 that was sufficiently dense to block rangefinder or designating lasers. Keep in mind the Soviet tube fired ATGMs RELIED on laser guidance. Soviet smoke doctrine, tactical, was to use smoke for maneuver and concealment. All Soviet MBTs had diesel squirted smoke generation on their engines. This was a WHITE smoke. All the Soviet MBTs by 1991 but not before about 1986, had smoke grenade launchers for WHITE smoke. NOT white or red phosphorus. From the late 1970s, NATO doctrine was to smoke enemy or suspected enemy positions and to fight from INSIDE smoke. Thermal sights would detect enemy AFVs at up to 5,000 meters and the fire control system would get a solution from 3,000 meters down. That included lasing the target. So where in the references did the Soviets have counter-laser/thermal smoke before 1999?

Presence of smoke grenade launchers on soviet tanks is very easy to spot. You can clearly see them on east german T-72 in their 1989 military parade which can be found on youtube. So year 1992 as introduction is wrong. Not to mention that also other warsaw pact armies had introduced smoke grenade launchers on their tanks in 1980s.

The question is thus not of existence of this capability but rather how much it was available in 1985. Specifically for East German tanks. And here I can say that the first basic T-72 with optical rangefinder obtained by East Germany in 1978 from the USSR did not have them.

Also further East German T-72 which differed from the basic ones with laser rangefinder (in soviet documents designated as early T-72M) still lacked smoke grenade launchers (no matter if delivered from the USSR, Czechoslovakia or Poland).

But in 1983 East Germany started to receive late subvariant of T-72M from the USSR and these finally had smoke grenade launchers. And from 1985 East Germany started to receive late T-72M with smoke grenade launchers also from production in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Total number T-72 variants delivered to East Germany by the end of year 1985 (including command variants):

- 35x basic T-72 with optical rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, gill side armor from soviet production

- 31x early T-72M (in east german service designated still T-72) with laser rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts from soviet production

- 219x early T-72M (in east german service designated still T-72) with laser rangefinder, 39 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, gill side armor from czechoslovak and polish production

- 69x late T-72M (in east german service designated T-72M) with laser rangefinder, 44 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts and smoke grenade launchers from soviet production

- 9x late T-72M (in east german service designated T-72M) with laser rangefinder, 44 carried 125mm rounds, steel turret, composite front hull of 80+105+20, full side skirts and smoke grenade launchers from czechoslovak/polish production

Im not agreeing with his post but you misunderstand. He didnt say smoke launchers were introduced in 1992, he is talking about the *type* of smoke. He is saying that the WP didnt have smoke that could obscure a laser or thermals.
My in game experience has been the WP pact will f**k with the LRF, not the thermals.

[bloody_gums]

Originally posted by acr11thcav:

Having been on M48A5 then M60A3 and then M1A1s as enlisted and then as an officer for over 15 years inside of a tank, there are many aspects of this game that can be great if done properly as a game or just another arcade hack. I question how much the developers have actually done any research in tank warfare. As far as getting into the weeds it would take an amazing amount of memory and programming to get to the level of actual Army simulators that we trained on. What it does come down to is that is this a time line play or pick a battle and a tank play game? The controls on this game are confusing and I cannot tell what position I am supposed to be as someone yells orders. It would be in the developers best interest to talk to those that have actually been in armor and in the military if they want a great game, or just state this is a cheap hack game.

Dude I replied to your original long rant. TLDR you are complaining about a lot of stuff thats literally already in game, its like you watched someone else play 1 scenario over their shoulder for 2 minutes and then ran off to type a 30 point essay on things to fix. Most notably is your complaints/suggestions to put in a gunnery range, when theres literally not only a gunnery range but vehicle specific training missions for all the vehicles.

[pav_novak]

Originally posted by bloody_gums:

Im not agreeing with his post but you misunderstand. He didnt say smoke launchers were introduced in 1992, he is talking about the *type* of smoke. He is saying that the WP didnt have smoke that could obscure a laser or thermals.
My in game experience has been the WP pact will f**k with the LRF, not the thermals.

I see. However any dense smoke will stop laser. One doesn't need anything special. Actually not even smoke just fog and laser will have problem to get through or get proper range information. See for example how laser guided bombs cannot be used in bad weather (and that are target designation lasers not just range information lasers).

Current smokes in game cannot stop thermals anyway so as I see it that complain was about issue which is not an issue in game.

[Fox]

Originally posted by acr11thcav:

Having been on M48A5 then M60A3 and then M1A1s as enlisted and then as an officer for over 15 years inside of a tank, there are many aspects of this game that can be great if done properly as a game or just another arcade hack. I question how much the developers have actually done any research in tank warfare. As far as getting into the weeds it would take an amazing amount of memory and programming to get to the level of actual Army simulators that we trained on. What it does come down to is that is this a time line play or pick a battle and a tank play game? The controls on this game are confusing and I cannot tell what position I am supposed to be as someone yells orders. It would be in the developers best interest to talk to those that have actually been in armor and in the military if they want a great game, or just state this is a cheap hack game.

Woah, it's a Mustang.

[bloody_gums]

Originally posted by pav_novak:

Originally posted by bloody_gums:

Im not agreeing with his post but you misunderstand. He didnt say smoke launchers were introduced in 1992, he is talking about the *type* of smoke. He is saying that the WP didnt have smoke that could obscure a laser or thermals.
My in game experience has been the WP pact will f**k with the LRF, not the thermals.

I see. However any dense smoke will stop laser. One doesn't need anything special. Actually not even smoke just fog and laser will have problem to get through or get proper range information. See for example how laser guided bombs cannot be used in bad weather (and that are target designation lasers not just range information lasers).

Current smokes in game cannot stop thermals anyway so as I see it that complain was about issue which is not an issue in game.

Nothing special is needed for a LRF, however smoke to blind thermals does require special ingredients

[bloody_gums]

Originally posted by Fox:

Originally posted by acr11thcav:

Having been on M48A5 then M60A3 and then M1A1s as enlisted and then as an officer for over 15 years inside of a tank, there are many aspects of this game that can be great if done properly as a game or just another arcade hack. I question how much the developers have actually done any research in tank warfare. As far as getting into the weeds it would take an amazing amount of memory and programming to get to the level of actual Army simulators that we trained on. What it does come down to is that is this a time line play or pick a battle and a tank play game? The controls on this game are confusing and I cannot tell what position I am supposed to be as someone yells orders. It would be in the developers best interest to talk to those that have actually been in armor and in the military if they want a great game, or just state this is a cheap hack game.

Woah, it's a Mustang.

Well according to some guy online we never met. For all we know hes a 13 yr old named Steve from Iowa who also realllly loves Nazi memorabilia but 'only for the aesthetic!'