T-64 Tank, any idea when the release will be?

[Soldner42]

Does anyone know when the T64 and T62 as well as the Leopard1 will be added to the Game?
I mean, their Models seem to exist already as they can be viewed in the Grafenwohr Gunnery Range. Im kinda excited for them and would Love to try them out.

[bloody_gums]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από bloody_gums:

Well Ill be a jerk and chime in that a T64 is NOT the same as a 72. For example the autoloader is hydraulic and faster, but the rounds are upright and it has deadlier effects (somehow) if penned for the crew, the rounds are more easily hit in the autoloader and hydraulic fluid can have bad outcomes for people.

Nevermind that the Soviets considered the T64 their primary tank and the T72 was considered a wartime bare bones model that because of politics started being produced in tandem with the T64; which actually worked for the Soviets because teething issues with the T64. That said the elite Soviet units would be in a 64/80 mix, you wouldnt see them in T72s. In fact believe it or not, from what ISTR Soviet use of the 72 was pretty rare compared to the T62/64.80, and more heavily compromised pact stuff and Soviet tanks not in GSFG until post cold war

Eh, IDK about the T-64 being better than the T-72, i think when the T-72B came out the T-72 started out doing it in some aspects

Please, show me where I said 'better'? I said ' not the same' Its objectively not.
As far as the Soviets opinion on it being 'better', thats also simply a matter of historical record. The rivalry between Kharkiv (64/80s) and Uralvagonzavod (72s/90s) is well known and the T64 came out sooner, the 'wartime' model comments and politics are easily searchable and accessible online.

Its also again, a matter of fact that the elite Soviet units, which GSFG was certainly considered the 'crown' of, employed the t64/t80 for what were considered their 'best' units.

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Eh, IDK about the T-64 being better than the T-72, i think when the T-72B came out the T-72 started out doing it in some aspects

If you compare the T72B to an T64 atleast compare it to a somewhat fair Model, like the T64B.
I also cant compare the T72 Ural to the Leopard 2A6 for obvious reasons. Well.. i can. But the Outcome isnt very surprising.
And as far as i know the T64B is still superior to the T72B in terms of Armor Composition and FCS as well as other smaller details like a RCMS or Remote Controlled Machinegun. ect. ect.

When talking about the T-72B i am talking about the T-64B, duh.

IDK there is things about the T-72B i've seen people prefer over the T-64B, like a laser guided ATGM

[Soldner42]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

If you compare the T72B to an T64 atleast compare it to a somewhat fair Model, like the T64B.
I also cant compare the T72 Ural to the Leopard 2A6 for obvious reasons. Well.. i can. But the Outcome isnt very surprising.
And as far as i know the T64B is still superior to the T72B in terms of Armor Composition and FCS as well as other smaller details like a RCMS or Remote Controlled Machinegun. ect. ect.

When talking about the T-72B i am talking about the T-64B, duh.

IDK there is things about the T-72B i've seen people prefer over the T-64B, like a laser guided ATGM

As far as i know only the T72B3 variants got the Refleks Missle, so 2011 ish.
The Cannon itself and the Autoloader could load ATGMs but to my knowledge, the T72s never received ATGMs as it was never needed.
The T64s andon the other hand received quite a lot of ATGM variants, one of the better known ones is the Agona.
The T64 received ATGMs way before the T72. So theres that.

I mean, the T64 wasnt and still isnt a perfect Tank. The T72 is by far cheaper to produce and way easier to Maintain and more reliable than the T64.
But on the other Hand, the T64 got atleast on Paper the better stats. Like.. overall better stats.

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

When talking about the T-72B i am talking about the T-64B, duh.

IDK there is things about the T-72B i've seen people prefer over the T-64B, like a laser guided ATGM

As far as i know only the T72B3 variants got the Refleks Missle, so 2011 ish.
The Cannon itself and the Autoloader could load ATGMs but to my knowledge, the T72s never received ATGMs as it was never needed.
The T64s andon the other hand received quite a lot of ATGM variants, one of the better known ones is the Agona.
The T64 received ATGMs way before the T72. So theres that.

I mean, the T64 wasnt and still isnt a perfect Tank. The T72 is by far cheaper to produce and way easier to Maintain and more reliable than the T64.
But on the other Hand, the T64 got atleast on Paper the better stats. Like.. overall better stats.

What? The T-72 had ATGMs since the 80s, the T-72B has them, the svir is a thing

[Soldner42]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

As far as i know only the T72B3 variants got the Refleks Missle, so 2011 ish.
The Cannon itself and the Autoloader could load ATGMs but to my knowledge, the T72s never received ATGMs as it was never needed.
The T64s andon the other hand received quite a lot of ATGM variants, one of the better known ones is the Agona.
The T64 received ATGMs way before the T72. So theres that.

I mean, the T64 wasnt and still isnt a perfect Tank. The T72 is by far cheaper to produce and way easier to Maintain and more reliable than the T64.
But on the other Hand, the T64 got atleast on Paper the better stats. Like.. overall better stats.

What? The T-72 had ATGMs since the 80s, the T-72B has them, the svir is a thing

Like i said.
ATGMs got developed for both Autoloader Systems.
But did they get handed out?
I know of some T64s that received ATGMs, but never heard of T72s even receiving ATGMs to use them. I mean, they are for sure in Stock. But i never saw them in Action or heard of any Reports that claim that they got used.
The T55AM and T62M variants also received ATGMs.

But how many do you see of them? At some Point it was deemed that the Missles are more expensive than the Tanks they were intended to Destroy and Normal Ammo which was way cheaper was thus used.
Atleast from T64s and some T55s i know that they used ATGMs. Other than these i know of no other Tank using these.
Like i said, to my Knowledge. Feel free to correct me.

[Soldner42]

I just looked it up now.

The first T72 that received the Equipment to use Laser Guided ATGMs was the T72B which entered Service in 1985. Not all of them got the needed equipment, just like not all of the T64Bs received the necessary equipment to use ATGMs.
Nonetheless the T64Bs entered Service in 1976 and some did received the needed Equipment and were also trained to use the ATGMs. I couldnt find anything about Crews being trained in T72s to use ATGMs.
T72, T72A, T72M, T72M1 werent able to use ATGMs. The first export T72M1 tank that was able to use ATGMs was the T72M1M and this one entered Service in 2002.

The Time the T72B entered Service the T64BV also entered Service.
Protectionwise its argueable which one was better as the Armor Composition of the T72Bs was different than the T64BVs.
Nonetheless, the T64B and all its variants already had ATGMs, long before the T72B existed, in use.
They still featured superior FCS.
The T64 features an RCWS, unlike Normal T72s till today.

The T64 and T80 Tanks always got the newer and better stuff way ahead of the T72s. Thats a well known Fact.
So still, i would say that an time equivalent T64 is better than a T72.

[CrazyhorseB34]

T-64B and T-80B. Are main threat Tanks of 1985. In scenario in game. T-72A same as T-72M or B. FCS for these Tanks is not same as T-64B 0r T-80B. 1985 Fulda Gap. Threats... In GSFG, T-80B, T-64B. In NVA, T-72, T-72M, T-72M1.

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

I just looked it up now.

The first T72 that received the Equipment to use Laser Guided ATGMs was the T72B which entered Service in 1985. Not all of them got the needed equipment, just like not all of the T64Bs received the necessary equipment to use ATGMs.
Nonetheless the T64Bs entered Service in 1976 and some did received the needed Equipment and were also trained to use the ATGMs. I couldnt find anything about Crews being trained in T72s to use ATGMs.
T72, T72A, T72M, T72M1 werent able to use ATGMs. The first export T72M1 tank that was able to use ATGMs was the T72M1M and this one entered Service in 2002.

The Time the T72B entered Service the T64BV also entered Service.
Protectionwise its argueable which one was better as the Armor Composition of the T72Bs was different than the T64BVs.
Nonetheless, the T64B and all its variants already had ATGMs, long before the T72B existed, in use.
They still featured superior FCS.
The T64 features an RCWS, unlike Normal T72s till today.

The T64 and T80 Tanks always got the newer and better stuff way ahead of the T72s. Thats a well known Fact.
So still, i would say that an time equivalent T64 is better than a T72.

Wouldn't a laser guided ATGM be preferrable to the guidance used on the T-64B?

Also no, missiles aren't more expensive than the tanks they are destroying what is wrong with you, and T-series tanks still regularly utilize ATGMs

Also, the svir entered mass production so why wouldn't T-72B crews be trained to use it? There is a lot of footage T-90M (T-72UM) using it's ATGMs

[Soldner42]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

I just looked it up now.

The first T72 that received the Equipment to use Laser Guided ATGMs was the T72B which entered Service in 1985. Not all of them got the needed equipment, just like not all of the T64Bs received the necessary equipment to use ATGMs.
Nonetheless the T64Bs entered Service in 1976 and some did received the needed Equipment and were also trained to use the ATGMs. I couldnt find anything about Crews being trained in T72s to use ATGMs.
T72, T72A, T72M, T72M1 werent able to use ATGMs. The first export T72M1 tank that was able to use ATGMs was the T72M1M and this one entered Service in 2002.

The Time the T72B entered Service the T64BV also entered Service.
Protectionwise its argueable which one was better as the Armor Composition of the T72Bs was different than the T64BVs.
Nonetheless, the T64B and all its variants already had ATGMs, long before the T72B existed, in use.
They still featured superior FCS.
The T64 features an RCWS, unlike Normal T72s till today.

The T64 and T80 Tanks always got the newer and better stuff way ahead of the T72s. Thats a well known Fact.
So still, i would say that an time equivalent T64 is better than a T72.

Wouldn't a laser guided ATGM be preferrable to the guidance used on the T-64B?

Also no, missiles aren't more expensive than the tanks they are destroying what is wrong with you, and T-series tanks still regularly utilize ATGMs

Also, the svir entered mass production so why wouldn't T-72B crews be trained to use it? There is a lot of footage T-90M (T-72UM) using it's ATGMs

The T64/80 and T72/90 Tanks use "different" Missles due to different Auto Loaders. So both got their share of Missles. I just dont know how much, as i cant find very much about them at all. Aside of Training Videos and Reports of Training and Testing i couldnt find much, and even that was mainly with T64/T80 Tanks.

War isnt Perfect. And Unloading a Round, especially in T Tanks is very unpracticable, so you would just fire your loaded Round. An ATGM is significantly more expensive than a usual HEAT-FS/HE/APDS-FS Round.
Usually a 125mm Round costs between 4000 - 13000$, depends on the Round. The 9K120 Svir/ 9K119 Refleks costs around 37500$
So, its safe to say that such a Missle costs more than the usual Jeep and Truck theyll encounter.
And since everything else is more common than Helos and Tanks it is more likely to encounter these, and the Missles would be wasted on them.
So, why use a Missle when a cheaper Round can do the same, sometimes even better.
Remember the reason why the M16A2/M16A4 or M4 Guns didnt got Full-Auto? Same Reasoning. Higher Ups didnt wanted Soldiers to waste Ammo.
Why do you think Soldiers never receive fancy stuff?
Its always about Money.
You want to just spend enough to defeat the Enemy, but not too much.
Also, can you give my a Source or Video that they use them regularly? Not being Offensive here, i just to read more about them as i cant find anything about them. If you have something it would be neat if you could share it with all of us, as it seems to be a "difficult" Topic.

The Svir aka 9K120 is just the T72/90 Variant. The 9K119 Refleks was the T64/T80 Variant.Kinda the same Model slightly modified for the different Autoloaders, atleast as much as i know.
I didnt said they didnt used it. I said i couldnt find anything about it. I even said that i believe that these Missles were Produced and are in Stock. I just couldnt find anything about them being used anywhere. Neither in Combat nor in Training.


Just before People come along and are agressive towards me.
Its just to my best knowledge, and English isnt my first Language.
Please stay Friendly, and if you know more, or can correct me, be so nice and share your Knowledge.

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

War isnt Perfect. And Unloading a Round, especially in T Tanks is very unpracticable, so you would just fire your loaded Round. An ATGM is significantly more expensive than a usual HEAT-FS/HE/APDS-FS Round.

This is completely false, Soviet doctrine is against loading a round before a target is spotted so this issue is irrelevant

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

And since everything else is more common than Helos and Tanks it is more likely to encounter these, and the Missles would be wasted on them.

A missile is not a waste on anything that isn't more cheap than a single soldier

[Soldner42]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

War isnt Perfect. And Unloading a Round, especially in T Tanks is very unpracticable, so you would just fire your loaded Round. An ATGM is significantly more expensive than a usual HEAT-FS/HE/APDS-FS Round.

This is completely false, Soviet doctrine is against loading a round before a target is spotted so this issue is irrelevant

First of all, we all know Theory always equals reality., or not.
Secondly, i dont really believe that Russian "Doctrine" dictates that they load a Round when they see an Enemy.
In Tank engagements, more often than not, the first one who is able to Shoot and score a Hit is usually the Winner.
Considering the Loading Process takes atleast 6.9 Seconds.. depending on where the Round on the Caroussell is, seems very Counter Productive. And yes, i assume that the Russians know this as well.
Added to that, its not uncommon to see recent Videos in Ukraine where T Tanks on both sides fire at each other with HE, because they had HE loaded.
That being said, Russia isnt the only Country to use T Tanks and their Ammo.

[Soldner42]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

And since everything else is more common than Helos and Tanks it is more likely to encounter these, and the Missles would be wasted on them.

A missile is not a waste on anything that isn't more cheap than a single soldier

A Missle is very useless against certain Targets. Whats the Point of using a Missle against for example a Truck? It makes a big Bang, maybe the Truck isnt useable anymore. But is anyone hurt? Probably not. atleast not seriously. So you just wasted a 37500$ Missle on the cheapest Military Truck possible and the Enemy is still able to react when an HE Round would have done the same and even way more for a significantly cheaper price.
So yes. You can waste Ammo and Missles.
The Point of the Missles was to Outrange Enemy Tanks and also improve Penetration Capabilities.
But its a rare Occasion where a Missle would be helpful. You would need around 3Km Distance between both Tanks, the T Tank need to have spottet the Enemy Tank and would need a clear Shot on it. And even than the Penetration isnt Guaranteed and the Enemy Tank could possibly retreat or worse, shoot back if close enough and do Serious Damage.
Also, a Missle can be spotted quite easiely and thus the origin of it. Its Slower, and argueably the newer APDS-FS Rounds the Russians got are waay cheaper and probably cause way more Damage.
So if you ask me, considering i like Missles, i wouldnt say that T Tank fired Missles are useful. I like them. But i dont deem them useful or better or not a waste of Money.
Other cheaper Missles are more Potent, and the Gun of the T Tanks .. given the right Ammo do have more Penetrating Capabilities than the Missles.

[dfebruary]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Soldner42:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από dfebruary:

A missile is not a waste on anything that isn't more cheap than a single soldier

A Missle is very useless against certain Targets. Whats the Point of using a Missle against for example a Truck? It makes a big Bang, maybe the Truck isnt useable anymore. But is anyone hurt? Probably not. atleast not seriously. So you just wasted a 37500$ Missle on the cheapest Military Truck possible and the Enemy is still able to react when an HE Round would have done the same and even way more for a significantly cheaper price.
So yes. You can waste Ammo and Missles.
The Point of the Missles was to Outrange Enemy Tanks and also improve Penetration Capabilities.
But its a rare Occasion where a Missle would be helpful. You would need around 3Km Distance between both Tanks, the T Tank need to have spottet the Enemy Tank and would need a clear Shot on it. And even than the Penetration isnt Guaranteed and the Enemy Tank could possibly retreat or worse, shoot back if close enough and do Serious Damage.
Also, a Missle can be spotted quite easiely and thus the origin of it. Its Slower, and argueably the newer APDS-FS Rounds the Russians got are waay cheaper and probably cause way more Damage.
So if you ask me, considering i like Missles, i wouldnt say that T Tank fired Missles are useful. I like them. But i dont deem them useful or better or not a waste of Money.
Other cheaper Missles are more Potent, and the Gun of the T Tanks .. given the right Ammo do have more Penetrating Capabilities than the Missles.

Missiles allow to dramatically improve the range of a tank, isn't there a video of an ATGM launched by a T-80BVM hitting two vehicles in a row from 7-8km away? ATGMs are also accurate too. To be honest as far as i know 8km is more range than any APFSDS

Also using the possibility of a non-pen as an argument against gun launched ATGMs is certainly something... by that logic all types of ammunition are useless