Testing branch Flood Plains

[bumm3r]

Having just gotten through the first few seasons with heavy rain on, I can say first and foremost that the floods can be quite destructive. Just based on the couple hours I played, it seems like there is a pretty big gap between the pros and cons of flood plains.

For me, the flood plains as a mechanic essentially boil down to their destructive capabilities, their lingering time and their benefit. As it stands on v0.515, I would essentially never want to farm in flood plains. The balancing of this mechanic would need to see some significant changes to probably two of these three variables. The problems I have with them is as follows:

The destruction they bring to crops is extreme, in my run being able to take an oats crop from ~80% grown to completely destroyed in a few days. I think I saw somewhere around -350% growth rate at some point, maybe a bit higher. I don't quite remember the best growth speed you can get with 100% moisture and fertilizer, but I think it was around 112-125%? The big negative growth rate is understandable, and I'm sure having heavy rain on makes this much worse.

However, even with heavy rain on, I did have a good three days and some change where there was no rain. In that time the flood plains remained, well, flooded. I believe I saw the worst of it hit about -350% growth rate and by the time the next rain came days later, the growth rate had risen up to maybe -250% (not sure what that is in flood %, think the highest I saw was 90%, not sure what the lowest was before the next rain.) With the extreme negative growth rate floods have, it seems like they should either linger for less time after rain stops or have a sizable reduction in their growth rate penalties.

The last of the 'variables' is that the fertilization bonus that comes with flood plains seems very minor. I believe with the 6+ days that I had a tilled field flooded in Autumn with crops planted, the fertilization of everything went down, even after plants had been killed off by the flood. That is to say, even on a bare tilled tile, fertilization was still going down. If the other aspects of flooding, destruction and lingering time, stay the same or even improve moderately, I think that the fertilizer impact of flood plains should still get a significant buff. Assuming nothing changes with the other two, I would expect at least a pretty much guaranteed 100% fertilizer stat on most flooded tiles. Making fertilizer is so easy and abundant that even if flood plains were just set to 100% fertilized, it would still be arguable how useful it really is to farm on them beyond the first year or two of a clan.

I also don't quite remember but it seemed like neeps were the only crop that survived floods? I could be wrong on that though. Again, with the current state of flood plains, I'm not really sure neeps merely surviving a flood is that useful given the other issues with the benefit of farming on flood plains and the lingering time. Again, I was playing with heavy rain enabled, so keep that in mind.

The last thing I have to say is that the generation for where flood plains will occur seems a bit too random to me. Given that the only real 'height' difference in terrain are mountains or bodies of water, it would make sense that flood plains should naturally occur focused around those areas. If some other landform was added to the game (like hills) then between those could also make sense, but right now just having random flood plains in forests and fields doesn't seem immersive for me at least.

Love the idea of the mechanic and how it looks so far.

[Rane]

Overall, I'm agreeing with the 'neat idea, execution needs some tweaks'. Like, I'm super down with the idea of having a hazard that Folk need to dodge and plan for. So, if 'don't put TS on Flood-prone tiles' is what Blorf is either aiming for or leaving open as a possibility, like, I'm down with that.

The first thought I had when I was playing last night was, it is very strange to see a farm tile with Flood 34% bordering 3 tiles that need to have water dumped on them b/c they are at 49% moisture. I wonder if it would explode the calculations to say 'can tiles next to Flooded tiles soak up some of the excess water?' While that sounds like low-bandwidth-CPU death, it also would put an interesting tweak on the decision process of players... I would want to be farming right next to Flood-prone tiles, if not specifically on them.

I haven't played long enough to figure out what happens to Production structures that are built on the Flood-prone tiles, esp when they are flooded. Do they get harder to use? I kinda feel like they should. Also I need to go build a lil enclosed room on some Fpt to see if the room floods... b/c tbh I think it should. It would incentivize players to care where they build or else build flooring in their houses. 'Why yes, I built this large manorhouse in the flood plain, but we spent the time to build up a good foundation, so I'm not worried.'

Should it take more time to construct road/flooring/walls on Flood prone tiles? I wouldn't argue if that were the case, it would feel realistic. Or like, have the difference between 'faster, less effort' road tiles that get flooded, or 'more effort, longer construction time' road tiles that don't flood, even on Fpt.

Overall, I like the mechanic, and I need to play with it some more to see what its doing.

ETA: Interesting... the TS tiles where I'd had Beans planted, after about 5 game days with flooding being a possibility, the 'blueprint' for planting beans there is just gone. It's plain Tilled Soil with nothing planted. Maybe that's part of the mechanic, that some crops will survive and some won't. (It better be Thistle, lol X D that survives flooding X D)

[cae]

I agree with both. I don't mind the flood happening, but it seems to be all over the place and impossible for me to plan farming.. Could we at least have the possibility to dig ditches? These should also help water the fields during summer.

ETA: Since we start the map during summer, it's also impossible to know where the flooding will happen?

[Rane]

I mean, 'surprise! things aren't what you thought they were!' isn't too terrible, esp when the penalty is just 'oh lolz cant plant here after all.'

oh, ps OP, a Tilled Soil tile with 100 Moi/Fert gives 150% GR in the spring and summer (and maybe fall too?)

Once I build a roof over Flood-prone tiles, and the flooded-ness drains away (ie high summer), even when the surrounding Fpt flood again, the covered but unfloored tiles do not re-flood. Considering the scale of a tile, this feels unrealistic to me... (or maybe I have lingering PTSD from growing up in a house at the base of a hill that would Receive Water Thru The Walls if it rained too hard...)

[bumm3r]

Well I just anticipate that ruling out planting on flood plains isn't what the goal of the mechanic was given that there was an upside mentioned via free fertilization. I haven't tried on a non heavy rain save, so maybe just not being able to rely on floodplains as a place to farm with heavy rain on is an acceptable choice design wise, which I'm fine with, but if avoiding floodplains all together on heavy rain isn't the goal, then some substantial changes are in order.

I also hadn't tried roofing the flood plain tiles at all, but that seems a bit gimmicky to rely on as a main part of handling those spaces. Good idea figuring that out though. I do also agree that some amount of spillover between tiles would make sense. A tile with 90% flood and an adjacent with 40% is a bit odd.

[Philtre]

You can see where the flood plains will be using the water overlay, which is now available in the map creation screen as well as when playing a save. (Flood plains will show up green; if you computer is slow it may take a few seconds to calculate and display for the whole map, so be patient.)

I agree that you shouldn't plant anything on tiles that will flood unless the crop is flood-resistant (onions, neeps, and flowers, IIRC).

Any kind of built surface completely blocks flooding, so the main effects are further incentivizing building paths around the map to avoid the movement penalty, and making you think more carefully about where you will put your farms and pastures. So for me it isn't really making that big a difference to gameplay, aside from having to move some farms on established saves.

[sakasiru]

Originally posted by Philtre:

making you think more carefully about where you will put your farms and pastures.

That's a big downside for me though. I already spend hours creating a map where lakes, rivers, bogs and mountains align in a way I want to work with, now there's another factor that can potientially stand in the way of my plans. Sure it can be a nice challenge now and then to work around what you are given, but judging from what I read here, plenty of players prefer to have more control. So if the game introduces another factor that's limiting how and where you can build, I really hope we get an editor where we can arrange our landscape more actively next. A new feature should enhance the gameplay after all, not just introduce something you need to work around.

Edit: Also, turning down floodplains in the map creation actually gives you three more points you can then spend on more wildlife or trees or whatever other useful stuff. If they mostly limit your space without any upsides, why would anyone turn the slider up for them?

[Rane]

Originally posted by sakasiru:

If they mostly limit your space without any upsides, why would anyone turn the slider up for them?

For the same reason people try Orphan start on a full -3 map. Crazynuts challenge, how stacked against me can I make the deck and still succeed? Like, some people play colony sims to make Most Efficient Setup Possible, and some people for the 'how many penalties can I overcome,' and both are valid and everything in between. Floodplains are, imo, like Rats. When they first went in, people were like OH HI UH WAT and now they're just AnotherThing, you know?

When I get bored of my current game, I'll do one without heavy rain and see if planting /on/ Fpt works out. Maybe the 'drowning out' doesn't happen there, and TS-Fpt is more of a benefit.

[sakasiru]

Originally posted by Rane:

Originally posted by sakasiru:

If they mostly limit your space without any upsides, why would anyone turn the slider up for them?

For the same reason people try Orphan start on a full -3 map. Crazynuts challenge, how stacked against me can I make the deck and still succeed? Like, some people play colony sims to make Most Efficient Setup Possible, and some people for the 'how many penalties can I overcome,' and both are valid and everything in between. Floodplains are, imo, like Rats. When they first went in, people were like OH HI UH WAT and now they're just AnotherThing, you know?

When I get bored of my current game, I'll do one without heavy rain and see if planting /on/ Fpt works out. Maybe the 'drowning out' doesn't happen there, and TS-Fpt is more of a benefit.

I don't mind challenges, I tried quite a few myself. But honestly this isn't the kind of challenge this game currently needs. The whole "just another thing" is what I don't like about it. It's just another thing that makes the early game a bit more annoying until you build around it and it doesn't pose any challenge for the later game, where it would be welcome. It's just another thing I need to pay attention to when I start a new game with a vision in mind how to layout my settlement. It doesn't really make the game more interesting because it's predictable which parts will be under water, it's just one more thing to pay attention to, and that will mostly hit the more inexperienced players who already struggle in the early game. Once you set up your fields where they can't be flooded and paved all your paths, what exactly is this feature adding to the game? What kind of game style does it encourage?

I feel the intention is that you can actually work with the flood plains to your favor by using the fertilisation (no idea how prevalent this was in medieval Scotland, but I played quite a few Ancient Egypt city builders so the concept is not lost on me). But the way it is currently set up, it does not work that way. I have a previous game with heavy rain where half my fields happen to sit on the new floodplains. Guess what, they are flooded for most of spring and autumn so I can't plant anything there, leaving only summer where I avoid to plant anything because the constant need for watering just isn't efficient. The solution is to just avoid the floodplains and set my fields elsewhere. You can't even cultivate a mushroom field there because they get killed as well. So I just end up with some areas of unusable space of unsightly puddles for half a year. How is that in any way interesting or challenging?

[Blorf]

Hi, thanks very much for all the detailed discussion on the flood plains. I am going to try the following changes today. My initial tuning was way off.

• Reducing growth rate penalties on flood plains
  
• Increasing the flood plain fertility bonus
  
• Cause the floods to dry up more quickly.
  
• Look into improved placement of flood plains
  
• Decreasing the size of the flood plains at Setting 0
  
• Defaulting old saves to -1 for the Flood plains, so people don't have to deal with them as much when they did not ask for it. I don't want to ruin people's old saves. I may even default to -2.
  
• Smoothing out the flooding gradient so a 90% flood tile is less likely to neighbor a 40% tile.
  
• Look into moisture spreading to neighboring tiles next to flood plains.

The goal is to have using the flood plains to be desirable, but the risk of a flood being a gamble players take.

I very much appreciate all this discussion and will prioritize improving the flood plains mechanic.

[sbhink805]

I'm curious how this affects peat bogs. I'm noticing negative growth in them as well, but I'm just into spring after starting in the winter with the new flood plains.

[Blorf]

Originally posted by sbhink805:

I'm curious how this affects peat bogs. I'm noticing negative growth in them as well, but I'm just into spring after starting in the winter with the new flood plains.

Peat grass is flood resistant, so bog flooding won't harm them, and the added fertilizer will aid in growth afterwards.

[Blorf]

New changes based on comments from above, thanks!

v0.516 - Testing Branch Only

• The goal of the following changes it to make the flood plains much more desirable as a growing area.
  
• Crop loss due to flooding should now be much rarer.
  
• Floods may end up being a story event that I trigger with extended rainfall to have better control over when disaster floods happen.
  
• I may hold off on the epic rains until year 2+ for example.
  
• Tuning:
  
• Flood Water will decrease 20% faster
  
• Flooding will take 40% longer to get to the maximum level
  
• Flooding Max Growth Rate Penalty from -400% to -250%
  
• Increased Max Flooding Fertilizer accumulation by 40%
  
• Increased Flooding Fertilization rate by 40%
  
• Lowered the Default amount of Flood Plain generation for all world setting values. (So overall there is a little less Flood Plains)
  
• Changes:
  
• For Old Saves prior to flooding (v0.515), turned the Flood Plains Off to prevent unwanted to changes to people's play throughs.
  
• Created a height map generator to make the flood plains attracted to low areas like rivers, bogs, and lakes, and avoid high areas with lots of mountains.
  
• Flood plains should appear in more logical areas now.
  
• Smoothed out the Flood plain gradients so deep water should not appear right next to dry land anymore. The terrain samples are now averaged over a small area.
  
• Added 2 Extra World Building Points!