Shay has very little power?

[Lily]

I may be wrong, but the Shay feels extremely underpowered based on what its spec sheet says.

My track has a relatively steep section going up into the logging camp, not particularly realistic but Betsy had absolutely 0 problems going up it with 3 empty flat cars. The shay, though? Can't even make it to the top.

I may have an incorrect understanding of how tractive effort works, but i'd have expected that a shay with ~5000lb of effort should be able to pull more load than betsy who has ~1200lb.

Is this a bug? Maybe betsy is too powerful by accident and she shouldn't be able to pull that much weight up the incline, either way seems very strange

[Kitsune Dawn]

Early shays weren't powerful. That one has the same number of pistons, same size in fact, that Betsy has.

The only thing that made the early small shays popular with logging railroads, is they could handle tighter curves than rod (conventional) locomotives. This allowed them to get into places where rigid locomotives couldn't. Keep in mind, locomotives like 'betsy' or the 0-4-2, weren't generally used by major railroads. Those are more 'contractor's' locomotives, meaning they worked with specialized equipment that was roughly their same size. Sure, you did see some companies go for one or two of them, but they were more likely to be seen with equally small 4 wheel rolling stock.

The average 'small' locomotive the Shay competed with, was a 2-6-0, or 4-6-0. Those engines, with their tenders, would be as long as two or sometimes three of the smaller early Shays.

Basically, a shay isn't more powerful. It's just able to go places other locomotives can't due to tight curves.

[Lily]

Originally posted by Kitsune Dawn:

Early shays weren't powerful. That one has the same number of pistons, same size in fact, that Betsy has.

...

Basically, a shay isn't more powerful. It's just able to go places other locomotives can't due to tight curves.

Okay so that makes sense, in that the shay's selling point is the ability to tackle a smaller radius vs a conventional loco, but it still doesn't really make sense in the context of the game?

I think my understanding of tractive effort must be bogus, those numbers (1200 for betsy, 5000 for the shay) are not pulled from irl prototypes but the in-game ui. I would have expected that for a 5x increase in tractive effort, it should at least be as capable as betsy even if it's not more powerful, and yet that doesn't appear to be the case?

Maybe it's the fact that betsy can go faster and has a run up and that's how it can clear the gradient?

Either way I suppose i should really fix the track rather than trying to convince every loco to get up the 3-4% grade

[Lily]

update - i went back and looked at the numbers again, predictably i'd misremembered.

So, betsy has 2800lb (about half the shay) but she only weighs in around 15 ton - the shay has twice as much but weighs nearly 50 ton (a 3x increase)

based on that, the shay actually has less power relative to its weight - i expect that's what i'm seeing in its inability to get up hills. on the flat it would be able to out pull betsy but when it has to work against its own mass that's when it starts to run into issues

[Kitsune Dawn]

Originally posted by Hoobs:

Originally posted by Kitsune Dawn:

Early shays weren't powerful. That one has the same number of pistons, same size in fact, that Betsy has.

...

Basically, a shay isn't more powerful. It's just able to go places other locomotives can't due to tight curves.

Okay so that makes sense, in that the shay's selling point is the ability to tackle a smaller radius vs a conventional loco, but it still doesn't really make sense in the context of the game?

I think my understanding of tractive effort must be bogus, those numbers (1200 for betsy, 5000 for the shay) are not pulled from irl prototypes but the in-game ui. I would have expected that for a 5x increase in tractive effort, it should at least be as capable as betsy even if it's not more powerful, and yet that doesn't appear to be the case?

Maybe it's the fact that betsy can go faster and has a run up and that's how it can clear the gradient?

Either way I suppose i should really fix the track rather than trying to convince every loco to get up the 3-4% grade

They actually are pulled from a real prototype. The Shay in game is the Mich-Cal number two, which was in service from the late 1800's, to about 1950. Whatever the case, every locomotive has its limit, grade wise. So a 'steep grade' is a vague term. Anything over 3% is going to make any engine struggle. Over 5% and you stand a very good chance that the engine simply isn't going to climb it, at all.

To put it into perspective, it helps to understand what grade percent means.

Grades are rated by percent, such as 1%, 2%, 3%. The higher the number, the steeper the grade. What it means though is in a 100 foot length, how many feet of vertical rise is there?

So a 1% grade, will raise 1 foot for every 100 feet of length. 2% is 2 feet for every 100, and so on.

So, that means a 10% grade raises 10 feet for every 100 feet. In degrees, that's a 5 degree angle. It doesn't sound like much of a degree angle, but you also must remember that it's a steel on steel contact between the wheel and rail. Steel on steel is, surprisingly, very low friction, so slippage is going to happen. More so if there is extra weight (cars) behind the locomotive.

While an automobile may handle a maximum of a 22% grade, for freight trains, gradients should be as gentle as possible, preferably below 1.5%.

The steepest adhesion (meaning no cog) track in the world, is on the Cass scenic railway, which had a short section that was 11% gradient, but switchbacked and required special operating rules to negotiate it. Specifically short trains, big locomotives, and the engine was always on the downhill side. By short, I mean 2 or 3 cars. The locomotives were massive 3 cylinder 3 truck shays.

[mkn192]

The other thing Shays were known for is they were great at operating over poorly maintained track, as often was the case with logging railroads (many of them didn't use ballast, just threw ties and rail down on the ground).

[FrameRate24]

The shay in game is 2-3 times heavier than it should be, (a little less than 16 tons) which drastically cuts into what the little guy can drag up a hill.


I ran test on some test track grades and if we assume the 0-4-0 has an accurate ish weight and tractive effort, then weights of tenders seems to be off at times by a factor of 3 (Montezuma seems to have a black hole for a water tank and boiler)

And loads and cars appear to be off by about 2.4 times what they should be on average.

But I also came across grades laying being grossly inconsistent again so it's really tough to be conclusive

There has been zero attention to detail in how things got put into the game, to bad the rockstar historions of the old days got chased out of the project

[Kitsune Dawn]

Originally posted by mkn192:

The other thing Shays were known for is they were great at operating over poorly maintained track, as often was the case with logging railroads (many of them didn't use ballast, just threw ties and rail down on the ground).

Yeah. Shays weren't too picky about where they went. Long as it wasn't a tight right hand curve (they tended to bind on right hand curves), the Shay didn't worry. Heislers took the Shay design and refined it, negating the curve handling issues by moving the drive shaft to the center, and having, in some cases, a transmission that could switch between high, and low gear to allow faster speeds.

[Dat Zorro]

So, what I'm gathering from this thread is that the Shay isn't worth the very attractive price of only 2.500 rubees, and that it's best to just skip it? I was hoping that I could replace Betsy with it for my logging camp - sawmill-route.
Can it be that the Montezuma is the better choice? Sure, it's power to weight-ratio is even worse, but at least it can pick up some speed for hills.

[cdnrdnck]

that old tiny T boiler shay isn't worth 2500 bucks....just don't

[Lily]

Originally posted by UAZ-469:

So, what I'm gathering from this thread is that the Shay isn't worth the very attractive price of only 2.500 rubees, and that it's best to just skip it? I was hoping that I could replace Betsy with it for my logging camp - sawmill-route.
Can it be that the Montezuma is the better choice? Sure, it's power to weight-ratio is even worse, but at least it can pick up some speed for hills.

I'm very late to respond but yea it wasn't worth it really - at least not from a pov of doing more work. It is worth it if you just really like shays (that's me) given the relatively low price, though.

[Lily]

Originally posted by cdnrdnck:

that old tiny T boiler shay isn't worth 2500 bucks....just don't

yeah it's a real pisser, it'd be nice if there were a way to re-sell locos or failing that, hire them out and get passive income...

[twil]

I use the shay as the log train. empty up hill, loaded with logs down hill to the saw mill.